Broadband Goes Down = CCTV Goes Down. Who's Fault?

Aylesbury_Duck

Radicalrooster said:

Many thanks all for your replies! I shan't quote reply all of them or my reply will be very long!

Can anyone therefore recommend an ISP which is 1. Reliable and 2. Offers speeds over 200mbps?

I understand I may be limited to what is available in my uncle's area but from previous research I remember not finding any other ISP that offered such speeds as Virgin.

Does it really need that speed?  I downgraded our VM contract from 100Mbps to 50Mbps last year to reduce our monthly cost.  We have 3-4 people wfh on Teams, Zoom, etc. as well as an alarm system similar to your uncle's, and we've had no problems related to speed.  In fact, although it may only be an impression, devices like my phone and ipad seem to work faster with the new speed!  They would occasionally crawl or stop when we had the faster service.

As for recommendation, I've been with VM since 2003 (when they were NTL) and in all that time, I think we've had no more than 4 days' cumulative downtime.  Can't really complain about that.

RogerBareford

Radicalrooster said:

I saw the BT product advertised (such a shame we have such poor infrastructure that a company has to offer two connections incase their main service goes down - As a consumer it almost makes me think 'is your service likely to go down then?!) but thus far it doesn't seem like Virgin offer this.

I am guessing it's not easy/possible to setup my own backup connection?

Unfortunately the CCTV doesn't have a secondary hard drive. It records 'to the cloud' which of course requires internet.

So really my only options are to find a more reliable (but potentially slower) connection.


Another thought out of interest - Is this lack of reliability down to our infrastructure in the UK or is 'the internet' in general just not very reliable globally?

Why was a system chosen that records to the cloud if everything being recorded all the time was an important factor?

Even cheap standalone Wi-Fi cameras often have SD card slots that will record locally even when there is a power outage.

You can also get a more traditional CCTV system that records to a central unit with wired cameras and has internet access.

If you had this system you could also have a UPS battery backup to preserve power in the event of a power outage.

You can also get multi WAN routers and if you connect the Ethernet from the Virgin Hub to it and also connect a 4G router it can be configured to automatically switch over.

But personally I think backup internet isn't really required in your situation.

Although any CCTV should have local storage as you are just adding extra risk by not only losing internet connect but also any issues with the remote server where the recording are stored.

Radicalrooster said:

Many thanks all for your replies! I shan't quote reply all of them or my reply will be very long!

Can anyone therefore recommend an ISP which is 1. Reliable and 2. Offers speeds over 200mbps?

I understand I may be limited to what is available in my uncle's area but from previous research I remember not finding any other ISP that offered such speeds as Virgin.

What does he need speeds of 200Mbps for exactly?

I notice earlier you seemed to think the CCTV system needed a good internet connection but most will work fine with only a 2Mbps upload speed so you don't need anywhere near a connection of 200Mbps download to get that kind of upload.

born_again

Radicalrooster said:

Many thanks all for your replies! I shan't quote reply all of them or my reply will be very long!

Can anyone therefore recommend an ISP which is 1. Reliable and 2. Offers speeds over 200mbps?

I understand I may be limited to what is available in my uncle's area but from previous research I remember not finding any other ISP that offered such speeds as Virgin.

You do not need that kind of speed to monitor live video.
We have 6 Blink cameras (save to SD card when set) in the house & these run perfectly well on 4G. While viewing out & about.

For standard definition (SD) streaming you'll need at least an average speed of 3Mbps, for HD 5-8Mbps and for 4K UHD you'll need 25Mbps minimum,

So BT fibre 2 @ 54Mb - 71Mb would cover that.

Alderbank

born_again said:

Radicalrooster said:

Many thanks all for your replies! I shan't quote reply all of them or my reply will be very long!

Can anyone therefore recommend an ISP which is 1. Reliable and 2. Offers speeds over 200mbps?

I understand I may be limited to what is available in my uncle's area but from previous research I remember not finding any other ISP that offered such speeds as Virgin.

You do not need that kind of speed to monitor live video.
We have 6 Blink cameras (save to SD card when set) in the house & these run perfectly well on 4G. While viewing out & about.

For standard definition (SD) streaming you'll need at least an average speed of 3Mbps, for HD 5-8Mbps and for 4K UHD you'll need 25Mbps minimum,

So BT fibre 2 @ 54Mb - 71Mb would cover that.

Remember that we are talking about CCTV cameras uploading data to the web. Upload speeds are set much lower than download speeds.
Virgin Media say their upload speed is typically 10% of download speed, so for 4K UHD the OP would need, as she says, download speed of about 200Mb.

Massive overkill of course for keeping an eye on elderly uncle in case he falls over

born_again

I get the point.
Might as well just have camera's that you can view live rather than a system that uploads to the cloud. Unless you really need to check on exactly what they have done during the day.

misimp

I understand your concern. I have a similar problem

At the end of the day, you can only everything you reasonably can

For instance, you could install the most sophisticated system...and then there is an electricity power cut in the area

Would you then blame yourself for not installing generator backup

You have done more than most people would, and all that you reasonably can

SiliconChip

You don't appear to have considered @neilmcl's suggestion of a monitored personal alarm, but I urge you to do so. We had one for my mum for a couple of years before her death and she used it a few times to raise an alert far more quickly than a camera that you look at a few times a day could have done unless the incident happens while you are watching. The one we used was run by the council, they supplied all the equipment, came out to install and test it, and if my mum didn't contact them every month to confirm everything was still working they would contact her to remind her. It also works in places that a camera probably won't cover, such as in the garden.

Ergates

Alderbank said:

born_again said:

Radicalrooster said:

Many thanks all for your replies! I shan't quote reply all of them or my reply will be very long!

Can anyone therefore recommend an ISP which is 1. Reliable and 2. Offers speeds over 200mbps?

I understand I may be limited to what is available in my uncle's area but from previous research I remember not finding any other ISP that offered such speeds as Virgin.

You do not need that kind of speed to monitor live video.
We have 6 Blink cameras (save to SD card when set) in the house & these run perfectly well on 4G. While viewing out & about.

For standard definition (SD) streaming you'll need at least an average speed of 3Mbps, for HD 5-8Mbps and for 4K UHD you'll need 25Mbps minimum,

So BT fibre 2 @ 54Mb - 71Mb would cover that.

Remember that we are talking about CCTV cameras uploading data to the web. Upload speeds are set much lower than download speeds.
Virgin Media say their upload speed is typically 10% of download speed, so for 4K UHD the OP would need, as she says, download speed of about 200Mb.

Massive overkill of course for keeping an eye on elderly uncle in case he falls over

If the primary purpose to to check if the uncle is OK, then frame rate could be dropped considerably without degrading function.   One frame every 5-10 seconds would be more than enough to tell if someone has fallen over.

Jumblebumble

Radicalrooster said:

An interesting one for you...

My elderly uncle has a user-installed home security system. It is made up of cameras and sensors and works via an app. I can login to the app and check the internal CCTV to make sure he is ok.

The alarm system relies on an internet connection, since the equipment connects via Wifi.

It does have a 3G backup system should the internet dropout, however this is purely for the alarm. I cannot view the CCTV if the broadband drops out.

Unfortunately, his Virgin Media broadband hasn't been the most reliable lately, and so when the internet goes down, so does his CCTV.

This makes me wonder - If anything were to happen, who would be liable?

For example - Say he were to be burgled and CCTV evidence not be recorded because the internet was down, who's fault is it?

Speaking to the security manufacturer, they said that if the internet goes down, it's the fault of the ISP.

Speaking with Virgin Media, they refuse to take any responsibility what so ever.

If something stops working because a service stops working, does the fault not lie with that service provider?

Not looking to start an argument or rant, just looking for any advice on whether Virgin's claims are true.

Your SLA with Virgin is likely to be "when we get around to fixing it"
Any connection may well not be fixed within SLA as we had with a Datacenter fire
One site we know £300 per month EFM line  4 Hour SLA   took 18 Hours  to fix  Compo 4 days rental
 
Another site we know has  a 100Mb  fibre line going down to the basement  and an Wifi based 100 Mb service on the roof with Luminet with automatic failover
This is as close to 100% as you can probably get but costs the thick end of £700 per month

RogerBareford

Jumblebumble said:

Radicalrooster said:

An interesting one for you...

My elderly uncle has a user-installed home security system. It is made up of cameras and sensors and works via an app. I can login to the app and check the internal CCTV to make sure he is ok.

The alarm system relies on an internet connection, since the equipment connects via Wifi.

It does have a 3G backup system should the internet dropout, however this is purely for the alarm. I cannot view the CCTV if the broadband drops out.

Unfortunately, his Virgin Media broadband hasn't been the most reliable lately, and so when the internet goes down, so does his CCTV.

This makes me wonder - If anything were to happen, who would be liable?

For example - Say he were to be burgled and CCTV evidence not be recorded because the internet was down, who's fault is it?

Speaking to the security manufacturer, they said that if the internet goes down, it's the fault of the ISP.

Speaking with Virgin Media, they refuse to take any responsibility what so ever.

If something stops working because a service stops working, does the fault not lie with that service provider?

Not looking to start an argument or rant, just looking for any advice on whether Virgin's claims are true.

Your SLA with Virgin is likely to be "when we get around to fixing it"
Any connection may well not be fixed within SLA as we had with a Datacenter fire
One site we know £300 per month EFM line  4 Hour SLA   took 18 Hours  to fix  Compo 4 days rental
 
Another site we know has  a 100Mb  fibre line going down to the basement  and an Wifi based 100 Mb service on the roof with Luminet with automatic failover
This is as close to 100% as you can probably get but costs the thick end of £700 per month

It can't possibly be because WiFi, because WiFi has such a short range it would be impractical even in a large city.