Broadband Goes Down = CCTV Goes Down. Who's Fault?

powerful_Rogue

Radicalrooster said:

Thank you so much all for your replies, this is actually somewhat insightful.

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Radicalrooster said:

This makes me wonder - If anything were to happen, who would be liable?

Depends on the thing happening.  If the internet service is out, VM is responsible for the loss of service, but they're not liable for a whole load of potential consequences.  What service provider would take customers on if they were exposed to practically unlimited liability for consequential loss.  Similarly, the alarm provider is responsible if their equipment or software fails, but again, they can't be held liable for a burglary that happens in that eventuality.  Any losses arising from burglary would normally be covered by insurance.  In your example, it's the CCTV that goes down if the internet goes down.  That doesn't prevent the burglary taking place, it just removes one avenue of evidence.  The loss still occurs.  Equally, even with the alarm system functioning fully, a burglary might still take place and the CCTV not be helpful.  The loss still occurs, so I can't see that you can demonstrably prove your uncle would be any worse off than he might have been had the system been functioning fully.

If I'm a trader/speculator/gambler and midway through placing what would be a lucrative purchase/bid/bet, or wanting to cash out before a particular result or price, and my internet drops out at an inopportune time, is the service provider liable for my lost gains or increased costs?  I wouldn't have thought so.


To answer the specific question, I think "who's at fault" is the wrong question.  Either party (or both) might be the cause of the outage, but it's the burglar that's at fault for the burglary and the loss.

A very good analogy. I hadn't thought about it that way.

I suppose another situation to consider - Should my uncle fall or be in danger someway and to eventually become injured, and I not know due to no connection, there is then no third party creating the 'cause'.

If my uncle's injury could have been prevented should the internet been reliable would be an interesting matter.

powerful_Rogue said:

Radicalrooster said:

Many thanks for all your replies.

Interesting, thank you. So my uncle (and all of us I suppose) are effectively paying for a service that isn't guaranteed?


Slightly off topic but this got me wondering - How do big companies that rely on an internet connection for business, or indeed security, manage to cope?

That's correct.

They pay a very large amount of money for a business connection with an extremely quick turn around service should an issue be detected.

TadleyBaggie said:

Radicalrooster said:

Slightly off topic but this got me wondering - How do big companies that rely on an internet connection for business, or indeed security, manage to cope?

They will have a B2B contract that specifies a Service Level Agreement (SLA), in that there will an agreement on what happens when the service is down. This is why they will £1000's for their connection and not £22.99 or so.

Many will also have a backup connection to mitigate service loss.

The current BT Halo 3 product can have a EE 4G connection in case of broadband loss, but you pay a premium.

Ergates said:

Radicalrooster said:

An interesting one for you...

My elderly uncle has a user-installed home security system. It is made up of cameras and sensors and works via an app. I can login to the app and check the internal CCTV to make sure he is ok.

The alarm system relies on an internet connection, since the equipment connects via Wifi.

It does have a 3G backup system should the internet dropout, however this is purely for the alarm. I cannot view the CCTV if the broadband drops out.

Unfortunately, his Virgin Media broadband hasn't been the most reliable lately, and so when the internet goes down, so does his CCTV.

This makes me wonder - If anything were to happen, who would be liable?

For example - Say he were to be burgled and CCTV evidence not be recorded because the internet was down, who's fault is it?

Speaking to the security manufacturer, they said that if the internet goes down, it's the fault of the ISP.

Speaking with Virgin Media, they refuse to take any responsibility what so ever.

If something stops working because a service stops working, does the fault not lie with that service provider?

Not looking to start an argument or rant, just looking for any advice on whether Virgin's claims are true.

A couple of points here.   I (obviously) don't know the details of the particular CCTV system installed at your uncle's house, but many IP cctv systems will have local storage that is connected to the cameras via the premises' internal network.  This means that if the internet (i.e. connection to the wider world) goes down, the cameras still work.  It just means you cannot log in and monitor them remotely.  So, is it definitely the case that your uncles system does not have this?

Secondly - if it is absolutely critical that your uncle's house maintains internet connectivity at all times, then you should not be relying on a simple domestic broadband supply.  There are systems with levels of redundancy in place that can kick in if the broadband drops out.  The simplest of these involves a 4g/5g backup (i.e. it switches to the mobile network) - but whether that is an option depends on where your uncle lives (as, obviously, you need 4g/5g coverage).   There are other options, but they are significantly more expensive and not really intended for domestic use).

Virgin Media are correct though - they did not offer their system has having 100% reliability and/or as being suitable for running a security system.

I saw the BT product advertised (such a shame we have such poor infrastructure that a company has to offer two connections incase their main service goes down - As a consumer it almost makes me think 'is your service likely to go down then?!) but thus far it doesn't seem like Virgin offer this.

I am guessing it's not easy/possible to setup my own backup connection?

Unfortunately the CCTV doesn't have a secondary hard drive. It records 'to the cloud' which of course requires internet.

So really my only options are to find a more reliable (but potentially slower) connection.


Another thought out of interest - Is this lack of reliability down to our infrastructure in the UK or is 'the internet' in general just not very reliable globally?

Again, no-one would be to blame. Do you monitor these cameras 24/7? What if you check at 10am, your uncle falls at 10:05 and you don't check again till 1400 - Would that then be your fault?

Buy a MiFi router + data only sim card.

user1977

Radicalrooster said:

Another thought out of interest - Is this lack of reliability down to our infrastructure in the UK or is 'the internet' in general just not very reliable globally?

There's probably something local to blame, I've very rarely had my (Virgin Media) connection fail. Are you sure it's actually a problem with them rather than with your uncle's equipment (or whoever is at the other end)?

Ergates

Radicalrooster said:

Thank you so much all for your replies, this is actually somewhat insightful.

I saw the BT product advertised (such a shame we have such poor infrastructure that a company has to offer two connections incase their main service goes down - As a consumer it almost makes me think 'is your service likely to go down then?!) but thus far it doesn't seem like Virgin offer this.

I am guessing it's not easy/possible to setup my own backup connection?

Unfortunately the CCTV doesn't have a secondary hard drive. It records 'to the cloud' which of course requires internet.

So really my only options are to find a more reliable (but potentially slower) connection.


Another thought out of interest - Is this lack of reliability down to our infrastructure in the UK or is 'the internet' in general just not very reliable globally?

How easy it is depends, to a degree, on your level of 4g coverage.   If you have good strong coverage, then you can get a routers that will accept a 4g dongle and will switch to it automatically.  These are already offered by some broadband suppliers (e.g. the BT one I think you were referring to) Virgin might do it too, I don't know.  If not, the simplest option might be to switch broadband supplier to one that does once the current contract is up.   Otherwise you'd need to buy and configure the kit yourself.  Say £100 or so for the kit (maybe a little more) - setting it up isn't particularly hard if you're confident with IT, if not find a friend who is and buy them a nice bottle of wine.

If you don't have a strong signal (but still get some coverage) it's still possible, but a little more complex.  You can get external 4g antennae that you can mount on your roof.  Mostly they're directional i.e. need to be pointed at the closest 4g tower.  They will offer a significant gain in the signal but unless you're *very* confident in your DIY, you're looking at getting a professional in to mount one.   Then you'd also need a router that will accept an external antennae AND a method of connecting the antennae to your router.  If your Uncle already has a wired home network set up, this would be less arduous - but either way you're looking at significant effort and cost.

DB1904

Radicalrooster said:

Thank you so much all for your replies, this is actually somewhat insightful.

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Radicalrooster said:

This makes me wonder - If anything were to happen, who would be liable?

Depends on the thing happening.  If the internet service is out, VM is responsible for the loss of service, but they're not liable for a whole load of potential consequences.  What service provider would take customers on if they were exposed to practically unlimited liability for consequential loss.  Similarly, the alarm provider is responsible if their equipment or software fails, but again, they can't be held liable for a burglary that happens in that eventuality.  Any losses arising from burglary would normally be covered by insurance.  In your example, it's the CCTV that goes down if the internet goes down.  That doesn't prevent the burglary taking place, it just removes one avenue of evidence.  The loss still occurs.  Equally, even with the alarm system functioning fully, a burglary might still take place and the CCTV not be helpful.  The loss still occurs, so I can't see that you can demonstrably prove your uncle would be any worse off than he might have been had the system been functioning fully.

If I'm a trader/speculator/gambler and midway through placing what would be a lucrative purchase/bid/bet, or wanting to cash out before a particular result or price, and my internet drops out at an inopportune time, is the service provider liable for my lost gains or increased costs?  I wouldn't have thought so.


To answer the specific question, I think "who's at fault" is the wrong question.  Either party (or both) might be the cause of the outage, but it's the burglar that's at fault for the burglary and the loss.

A very good analogy. I hadn't thought about it that way.

I suppose another situation to consider - Should my uncle fall or be in danger someway and to eventually become injured, and I not know due to no connection, there is then no third party creating the 'cause'.

If my uncle's injury could have been prevented should the internet been reliable would be an interesting matter.

powerful_Rogue said:

Radicalrooster said:

Many thanks for all your replies.

Interesting, thank you. So my uncle (and all of us I suppose) are effectively paying for a service that isn't guaranteed?


Slightly off topic but this got me wondering - How do big companies that rely on an internet connection for business, or indeed security, manage to cope?

That's correct.

They pay a very large amount of money for a business connection with an extremely quick turn around service should an issue be detected.

TadleyBaggie said:

Radicalrooster said:

Slightly off topic but this got me wondering - How do big companies that rely on an internet connection for business, or indeed security, manage to cope?

They will have a B2B contract that specifies a Service Level Agreement (SLA), in that there will an agreement on what happens when the service is down. This is why they will £1000's for their connection and not £22.99 or so.

Many will also have a backup connection to mitigate service loss.

The current BT Halo 3 product can have a EE 4G connection in case of broadband loss, but you pay a premium.

Ergates said:

Radicalrooster said:

An interesting one for you...

My elderly uncle has a user-installed home security system. It is made up of cameras and sensors and works via an app. I can login to the app and check the internal CCTV to make sure he is ok.

The alarm system relies on an internet connection, since the equipment connects via Wifi.

It does have a 3G backup system should the internet dropout, however this is purely for the alarm. I cannot view the CCTV if the broadband drops out.

Unfortunately, his Virgin Media broadband hasn't been the most reliable lately, and so when the internet goes down, so does his CCTV.

This makes me wonder - If anything were to happen, who would be liable?

For example - Say he were to be burgled and CCTV evidence not be recorded because the internet was down, who's fault is it?

Speaking to the security manufacturer, they said that if the internet goes down, it's the fault of the ISP.

Speaking with Virgin Media, they refuse to take any responsibility what so ever.

If something stops working because a service stops working, does the fault not lie with that service provider?

Not looking to start an argument or rant, just looking for any advice on whether Virgin's claims are true.

A couple of points here.   I (obviously) don't know the details of the particular CCTV system installed at your uncle's house, but many IP cctv systems will have local storage that is connected to the cameras via the premises' internal network.  This means that if the internet (i.e. connection to the wider world) goes down, the cameras still work.  It just means you cannot log in and monitor them remotely.  So, is it definitely the case that your uncles system does not have this?

Secondly - if it is absolutely critical that your uncle's house maintains internet connectivity at all times, then you should not be relying on a simple domestic broadband supply.  There are systems with levels of redundancy in place that can kick in if the broadband drops out.  The simplest of these involves a 4g/5g backup (i.e. it switches to the mobile network) - but whether that is an option depends on where your uncle lives (as, obviously, you need 4g/5g coverage).   There are other options, but they are significantly more expensive and not really intended for domestic use).

Virgin Media are correct though - they did not offer their system has having 100% reliability and/or as being suitable for running a security system.

I saw the BT product advertised (such a shame we have such poor infrastructure that a company has to offer two connections incase their main service goes down - As a consumer it almost makes me think 'is your service likely to go down then?!) but thus far it doesn't seem like Virgin offer this.

I am guessing it's not easy/possible to setup my own backup connection?

Unfortunately the CCTV doesn't have a secondary hard drive. It records 'to the cloud' which of course requires internet.

So really my only options are to find a more reliable (but potentially slower) connection.


Another thought out of interest - Is this lack of reliability down to our infrastructure in the UK or is 'the internet' in general just not very reliable globally?

How would a reliable internet connection prevent him falling?

neilmcl

Have you considered getting a monitored personal alarm for your uncle which is not reliant on the internet?

https://www.lifeline24.co.uk 

TadleyBaggie

Radicalrooster said:

I saw the BT product advertised (such a shame we have such poor infrastructure that a company has to offer two connections incase their main service goes down - As a consumer it almost makes me think 'is your service likely to go down then?!) but thus far it doesn't seem like Virgin offer this.

I'm not aware that BT have  a poorer infrastructure compared with other suppliers, indeed a majority of the infrastructure is shared. At least they have a backup solution, good for them.

In fact my BT broadband went down last week and they were very quick to ship the EE 4G router to me, however I didn't need it in the end as the fault turned out to be the RJ11 cable that connects the BT router to the wall socket. It was probably 10+ years old and probably not even supplied by BT originally. 

TELLIT01

I can't imagine that any service provider, internet or otherwise, would be stupid enough to claim that their service will be available 100% of the time.  There are always outside factors at play.  A local power outage would affect internet connection but that's entirely outside the internet service provider's control.  Is the blame then with the power company?  Maybe somebody cut the power with a JCB......... 

Regarding BTs internet service.  My wife has been working from home for nearly 2 years now and we have had one outage, and that was caused by an overheight vehicle snagging the lines and bringing the telephone pole down.  People she works with have Virgin and lose the system on a regular basis.  We have 70mbps service which serves our needs very well.

Radicalrooster

Many thanks all for your replies! I shan't quote reply all of them or my reply will be very long!

Can anyone therefore recommend an ISP which is 1. Reliable and 2. Offers speeds over 200mbps?

I understand I may be limited to what is available in my uncle's area but from previous research I remember not finding any other ISP that offered such speeds as Virgin.

TadleyBaggie

Many ISPs offer 200Mbps+ products, without knowing where your uncle lives who can say.

I'm very happy with my BT G.Fast fibre (FTTC) connection, I'm getting a minimum of 250Mbps.

bris

Everyones service goes down at some point. Had the internet from the start and there are always outages from every provider. 

Apart from Virgin most if not all rely on the BT exchange so if one went down they all went down. Not sure if thats still the case as some have their own space in the exchanges now but there is no way that anyone is going to guarantee no outages. The EE with 4G is about as close to it as you will get but that won't be perfect either for people in a poor 4g area,