Land Registry Title mentions charges . What does this mean and how can I find more details?

ChasingtheWelshdream

Good evening, I'm hoping someone could kindly point us in the direction of solving a mystery which has just appeared. It may be very simple (we hope!) but I'll give the context.

Our elderly mother may be selling her house this year (possibly for care purposes) and we are starting to gather relevant paperwork. She has been in the house since 1973 and owns it outright - or so we thought. Due to the time she has been there, we were unsure if had ever been registered. If not we would look to sort that before the time comes to sell. She has always insisted the deeds are 'with the bank'. 

The house was originally jointly purchased between her, her own parents and husband in 1973 - all now deceased. Husband died 2008. Due to this and some historic animosity over an inheritance, we were also curious if there are any charges placed on the property to resolve the inheritancy argument.

I have today found the property is registered with Land Registry (hooray!) and downloaded the Title Register and Plan. And now I'm confused....

The Extract states:

Registered owner: Mother  So far so good
Lender: XXX bank  Eh? It should be owned outright!


The Property Register sates:
(XX/XX/1973) PROPRIETOR: Mother

(XX/XX/1973) RESTRICTION: No disposition by a sole proprietor of this land (not being a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered except under an order of the registrar or of the court. We assume this is nothing to be concerned about?

 
Charges Register:
1: A transfer dated XX/XX/1954 made between XXX and XXX contains restrictive covenants NOTE: Original filed. We assume this is historic and there are other documents we could apply for, but for historical interest only.

2: (XX/XX/1973) Registered Charge dated XX/XX/1973 to secure the moneys including the further advance therein mentioned We assume the original mortgage

3: (XX/XX/2007) Proprietor: Bank details! This makes no sense to us. Husband died 2008 and the mortgage should have been paid off by then anyway.

End of Register


So, at first glance it looks like there is still a registered interest with the bank but no figures or any other information. To our knowledge there has never been any remortgages or further advances so we are completely confused. Mother is not able to answer any questions.

We wondered if the bank maybe charge for holding the deeds (even though it is registered) and this is related. However I have looked at the bank's website which simply states that any deeds for mortgages started before a certain date would be returned within 28 days of a mortgage being paid off. Which this property falls under, unless we are missing something.

My main questions are:

1. Am I correct that the above implies the bank still have a charge on the property? No monetary amounts are stated. 
2. Once the mortgage was paid, would any charges have been removed automatically or did our parents neglect to do something?
3. Is this simple to resolve?
4. Who is our next port of call for more information. Land Registry or Bank?

We do have Power of Attorney but are also many, many miles away from the branch that mother says 'has the deeds'.

Any information as to our next steps would be very much appreciated. We are working through a minefield of paperwork so don't want to get bogged down with unnecessary worry. On the other side, if this is something serious we need to be resolving sooner rather than later.

As always, thank you forum for your help. 

Slithery

It used to be common for a small amount to be left on the mortgage on purpose so that the bank kept storing the deeds for you.

But ask the bank as they are the only ones that can answer.

user1977

The fact a charge is still registered doesn't necessarily mean anything is owed, just that nobody ever bothered to remove it. Assuming the account is in fact long closed, it may mean contacting the "difficult" desk at the bank to sort it out, as they won't have any live details of the account.

ChasingtheWelshdream

Thank you both, that is very reassuring to hear!

We had wondered if there was a storage fee, but as the property is registered the bank's website currently states they do not hold deeds. But, we are going back years.

The 'difficult' desk sounds....fun...meh.

So the first port of call is the bank, rather than applying for any further documents from Land Registry. That is very helpful.

If, as is sounds, the charge is nothing erroneous, would it need to be resolved before selling the property? Or would be be part of the conveyancing process?

ChasingtheWelshdream

Slithery said:

It used to be common for a small amount to be left on the mortgage on purpose so that the bank kept storing the deeds for you.

But ask the bank as they are the only ones that can answer.

This especially gave me a starting point beyond my initial looking. And I have now found quite a few threads about this particular bank's deed storage and fees. So I'm assuming this is indeed probably what the charge is for. The 2007 date is confusing as we thought the mortgage was paid off years prior, but we may be mistaken in that. Having delved deeper, I also have a phone number for the deed storage as a starting point!

I was getting myself in a bit of a state thinking there is some legal thing we also have to deal with, but I'm going to sleep easier tonight now I have a first port of call. I was having nightmares about hidden mortgages coming out the woodwork!

user1977

ChasingtheWelshdream said:

If, as is sounds, the charge is nothing erroneous, would it need to be resolved before selling the property? Or would be be part of the conveyancing process?

It would need to be resolved before a sale can be completed, but it probably can be dealt with in parallel with the rest of the transaction (at least you have some warning of it, these things are sometimes a last minute surprise).

ChasingtheWelshdream

Thank you. This is why we are trying to get everything in a row so we are prepared if/when the time comes. 

It’s a great weight off my
mind. :-)

canaldumidi

ChasingtheWelshdream said:

.....

The Property Register sates:
(XX/XX/1973) PROPRIETOR: Mother

(XX/XX/1973) RESTRICTION: No disposition by a sole proprietor of this land (not being a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered except under an order of the registrar or of the court. We assume this is nothing to be concerned about?

 
Charges Register:
1: A transfer dated XX/XX/1954 made between XXX and XXX contains restrictive covenants NOTE: Original filed. We assume this is historic and there are other documents we could apply for, but for historical interest only.

2: (XX/XX/1973) Registered Charge dated XX/XX/1973 to secure the moneys including the further advance therein mentioned We assume the original mortgage

3: (XX/XX/2007) Proprietor: Bank details! This makes no sense to us. Husband died 2008 and the mortgage should have been paid off by then anyway.

Restriction:  This is standard for a property owned jointly as Tenants In Common. Should have been dealt with on the deaths of the other joint owners. Was probate granted? IHTpaid if applicable? Estates wound up?

1) You cannot assume this is historic. The covenants may well still apply. As the original document is filed with the Land Registry, use form OC2 + £7 to apply for a copy by post.

2) original mortage and further advance.

3) makes perfect sense - it's the bank holding themortgage in 2) above!

Only the bank (see 3 ) can remove the mortgage charge. Contact them.

ChasingtheWelshdream

canaldumidi said:

.

Restriction:  This is standard for a property owned jointly as Tenants In Common. Should have been dealt with on the deaths of the other joint owners. Was probate granted? IHTpaid if applicable? Estates wound up?
I'm afraid and have no way of finding out much detail. Although I say my mother, she is my mother-in-law and I was not around at the time of the relatives' deaths. This is something that is easy to sort hopefully? IHT is unlikely to have been applicable though.

1) You cannot assume this is historic. The covenants may well still apply. As the original document is filed with the Land Registry, use form OC2 + £7 to apply for a copy by post.
Oh that's interesting, thank you. I am hopeful any covenants will be regarding businesses, livestock or ongoing whilst the rest of the estate was being built. The estate was still not complete when she moved in. But I will apply for the documents to ensure there are no nasty surprises.

2) original mortage and further advance.

3) makes perfect sense - it's the bank holding themortgage in 2) above!
It is the date that doesn't make sense as we were under the impression the mortgage had long-since been paid off by that time. Her husband had been retired a long time and we thought he retired having paid-off the mortgage first. The 2007 date is only a short time before his death. But without mortgage paperwork we can't be sure. 

Only the bank (see 3 ) can remove the mortgage charge. Contact them.
We will make enquiries using the POA, but hoping it is something that can be dealt with later, rather than sooner and we can pass to the solicitor when we get to that stage. 

We are still in the early stages of assessing future care needs and do not need to act on anything urgently. We know the house will likely need to be sold to fund care - maybe this year, maybe next. We are just trying to get as prepared as we can and tick off as many boxes as we can before the stress builds up.  

loubel

[quote]I'm afraid and have no way of finding out much detail. Although I say my mother, she is my mother-in-law and I was not around at the time of the relatives' deaths. This is something that is easy to sort hopefully?[/quote]

This is something that you will need to find out about as the Restriction is protecting a trust over the property so you need to establish whether MiL inherited her parents' and her husband's shares in the property when they died.

As you mention an inheritance dispute it is essential that you are certain on this point as someone will need to step up and act with MiL as Trustee of this trust in order to sell the property and they would be liable if they gave her the sale proceeds when she wasn't entitled to them.

Copies of Wills and Grants of Probate for everyone will be your first step and these can be purchased for a few pounds each - assuming that probate was obtained.

ChasingtheWelshdream

Thank you. Potentially there may be some difficult conversations coming up with distant relations I fear. The dispute seems to be something that has been brushed under the carpet somewhat, with no real details and a definite desire not to speak about it. It has (we understand) caused some huge animosity and estranged relatives over the years but much of what we 'know' is still just hearsay. 

Looks like some digging to be done.....