Land Registry Title mentions charges . What does this mean and how can I find more details?

canaldumidi

If probate was granted, £1.50 here will get you the will.

peterhjohnson

ChasingtheWelshdream said:

We had wondered if there was a storage fee, but as the property is registered the bank's website currently states they do not hold deeds. But, we are going back years.

Yes. I once owned an unregistered property and when I got close to the end of the mortgage, the building society suggested leaving £100 owing and they'd hold the deeds for free. I think they hoped to sell me a new loan but after a few years, they introduced a charge

ChasingtheWelshdream

canaldumidi said:

If probate was granted, £1.50 here will get you the will.

So I have found and downloaded the will and grant of probate. It all seems standard to my untrained eyes. Names my husband as executor, names relatives as trustees if my husband couldn’t act as executor, and all possessions to go to his wife (mother-in-law). 

Should I be looking further back or at something else? When MIL’s parents died?

canaldumidi

I may have missed someting, but why would MIL'sparents be relevant? Property is registered to MIL.

Contact the bank re the Charge.

Contact the LR to obtain the transfer/covenants mentioned.

ChasingtheWelshdream

loubel said:

X/XX/1973) RESTRICTION: No disposition by a sole proprietor of this land (not being a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered except under an order of the registrar or of the court. 

[quote]

This is something that you will need to find out about as the Restriction is protecting a trust over the property so you need to establish whether MiL inherited her parents' and her husband's shares in the property when they died.

As you mention an inheritance dispute it is essential that you are certain on this point as someone will need to step up and act with MiL as Trustee of this trust in order to sell the property and they would be liable if they gave her the sale proceeds when she wasn't entitled to them.

Copies of Wills and Grants of Probate for everyone will be your first step and these can be purchased for a few pounds each - assuming that probate was obtained.

This is why. As far as I can see from Land Registry, the property is in sole ownership of MIL. I was only originally questioning the bank’s interest. But it mentions a restriction which may - or may not - need looking at further.

I am the first to admit I don’t really understand it all or even if it is a problem when we come to sell.

If the house was purchased in 1973 between 4 people (our understanding) and subsequently inherited by the remaining relative, would the registration show the original purchase date (1973) or the date it was inherited?

ChasingtheWelshdream

On that note, I am aware this is moving away from my original land registry question somewhat so apologies. I had originally just wanted to check if the property was registered so we could do-so if necessary and I am now going along a different path.

 We will not be attempting any legal work ourselves and will employ a solicitor when the time comes.

But we do want to have a grasp on everything so we do not cause any necessary delays that could be solved beforehand. And am trying to understand what needs to be done so we can get any relevant documents ready for a solicitor if we need to go down that route.

canaldumidi

ChasingtheWelshdream said:

loubel said:

X/XX/1973) RESTRICTION: No disposition by a sole proprietor of this land (not being a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered except under an order of the registrar or of the court. 

[quote]

This is something that you will need to find out about as the Restriction is protecting a trust over the property so you need to establish whether MiL inherited her parents' and her husband's shares in the property when they died.

As you mention an inheritance dispute it is essential that you are certain on this point as someone will need to step up and act with MiL as Trustee of this trust in order to sell the property and they would be liable if they gave her the sale proceeds when she wasn't entitled to them.

Copies of Wills and Grants of Probate for everyone will be your first step and these can be purchased for a few pounds each - assuming that probate was obtained.

...

If the house was purchased in 1973 between 4 people (our understanding) and subsequently inherited by the remaining relative, would the registration show the original purchase date (1973) or the date it was inherited?

The Land Registry website only shows the most recent transfer, and in most but not all cases, the price paid.

There are commercial sites eg Rightmove- others are available - that store LR data and display historic transfers and prices.

ChasingtheWelshdream

Which makes me wonder if our assumptions are wrong. If the only registration is dated 1973 I wonder if it was always in her name solely or am I misinterpreting it?

Last question for a while I hope! 

Land_Registry

ChasingtheWelshdream said:

Which makes me wonder if our assumptions are wrong. If the only registration is dated 1973 I wonder if it was always in her name solely or am I misinterpreting it?

Last question for a while I hope! 

It reads as if the joint ownership (just the two of them or even four) was registered in 1973 when they purchased. The purchase price would not be on the register as it wasn’t added in the 70s. It’s inclusion now is a relatively new thing for many although some registers from 60s will refer. Different governments required different things. 

It reads as if this is just something of interest and not essential but if you really wanted to check you could apply by post for a copy if we have a copy of the purchase deed still. 

The charge/mortgage - others have explained but bank can confirm. If some9be has the deeds then it’s more likely they paid it off and the bank gave them the deeds and paperwork to confirm the charge was paid up. If they did then it reads as if they didn’t then apply to update the register. 

Restriction - it’s a form A restriction most often associated with TIC as mentioned but it can be applied for a range of scenarios. What counts is that it’s still there and as she’s now the sole surviving registered owner then it bites should she wish to sell. 

Probate is not required re the property as the legal ownership has passed to her. The will, inheritance and any ‘dispute’ re inheritance are quite separate but important matters. They relate to their beneficial ownerships though and not the legal one as mentioned and which we register. If you want that explained then happy to try. 

The key here is that she can still sell but she would need to deal with the restriction when doing so or get it cancelled. The latter seems unlikely as it reads as if she’s not the sole beneficial owner and her late husband’s beneficial ownership has been left to some9be else.
So the other option is to appoint someone else to act with her as a co-trustee and they then jointly sell. Why? Well as a co trustee that person takes on an obligation with her to ensure the proceeds of sale (the capital monies) are dealt with according to the beneficial shares as mentioned. 

Check the deeds/paperwork first re the mortgage being paid. Contact the bank as need be if no information found. 

If a sale is to happen the conveyancer will clarify matters re the form A restriction and take into account the wider issues mentioned re will, inheritance etc. 

ChasingtheWelshdream

Thank you so much, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply and it goes a long way to help my understanding. We have managed to find out more about the dispute but have no paperwork as to what happened to resolve it (if anything). We are just told "it was all sorted and they were paid off"

Are you able to clarify a couple of things please?

• The inheritance dispute appears to surround how much capital the grandparents originally put into the property.  (eg a percentage of the property valuation or a fixed amount). This would not be recorded on any documents at the Land Registry, just the total purchase price I presume?

• The charge we will speak to the bank about, I'm getting somewhere with that. They should have records (hopefully) of the entire mortgage 'life'.

• The restriction will cause issues when she sells as it appears she did not inherit her husbands beneficial ownership. The husbands will states all possessions and property were to pass to his wife. Is that sufficient evidence to have the restriction removed? My husband was executor and does not remember doing anything with Land Registry, but somebody must have informed them. It may be he neglected to do something.
• 
  
• Is there anything Land Registry hold that would confirm the reason for the restriction. To determine if it related to being TIC with her husband or for another reason (eg another person having beneficial interest)

• If the restriction is unable to be removed, a co-trustee will need to be certain that any other beneficial interest is accounted for before distributing the funds. For which we would need to delve deeper into the past and the chain of inheritance/wills? These would be separate documents somewhere beyond the remit of Land Registry?

•  Does the Land Registry keep a chronology of when someone's name is removed through death, and if so, how would we see that. So when FIL died 2008 and MIL became sole proprietor, is this shown anywhere as a change that we can see? And could therefore go back further to trace when the grandparents were removed. I ask this as we are doubting now whether the grandparents were ever actually registered owners (a whole other saga feeding the dispute, whether they actually had assets to bequeath).
  

I hope that makes sense, and I again I really appreciate everyone looking at this for me. We are resigned to having to sort this one way or another. If we can't be sure MIL is entitled to 100% of the capital proceeds, it may also impact on her assessment for future care funding. Families eh?!