Removed

Money_Grabber13579

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

bris said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

smashinglynaive said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

If you haven’t been given information on the right to cancel (and didn’t walk into the traders place of business to form the contract) then the cancellation period is 1 year and 14 days.

If you cancel during the period and the trader has failed to provide the above information no payment is due.

So if the electrician has carried out the work with reasonable skill and care, the installation is fully tested and working, what are you saying?

Exactly what I've said, for a distance or off premises contract where the correct information specifically related to the right to cancel isn't provided the extended cancellation period applies and where the consumer cancels within the cancellation period and the trader has failed to provide the correct information mentioned the consumer is not bound to pay for any services, in part or in full, already received. 

Caveat being OP may have to pay for any goods supplied and I forgot to add the OP should formally cancel the contract via a durable medium. 

So what I think you're saying is anyone could cancel a contract after the work was done just because they didn't receive information on how to cancel? 

That's correct, if the trader fails to provide by durable means:

(l) where a right to cancel exists, the conditions, time limit and procedures for exercising that right in accordance with regulations 27 to 38;

and/or

(n) that, if the consumer exercises the right to cancel after having made a request in accordance with regulation 36(1), the consumer is to be liable to pay the trader reasonable costs in accordance with regulation 36(4);

which covers stating part of the service would need to be paid if the consumer cancels midway, there is no obligation to pay for the service.

Also for an off premises contract if the service begins within the cancellation period but the trader hasn't sought the consumer's express consent provided by the consumer via a durable medium for the service to begin within the cancellation period, there is also no obligation to pay.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/36

(6) The consumer bears no cost for supply of the service, in full or in part, in the cancellation period, if—

(a)the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, or the information on payment of that cost required by paragraph (n) of that Schedule, in accordance with Part 2, or

(b)the service is not supplied in response to a request in accordance with paragraph (1).

36.—(1) The trader must not begin the supply of a service before the end of the cancellation period provided for in regulation 30(1) unless the consumer—

(a)has made an express request, and

(b)in the case of an off-premises contract, has made the request on a durable medium.

The extended cancellation period is detailed here:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/31

Cancellation period extended for breach of information requirement

31.—(1) This regulation applies if the trader does not provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

(2) If the trader provides the consumer with that information in the period of 12 months beginning with the first day of the 14 days mentioned in regulation 30(2) to (6), but otherwise in accordance with Part 2, the cancellation period ends at the end of 14 days after the consumer receives the information.

(3) Otherwise the cancellation period ends at the end of 12 months after the day on which it would have ended under regulation 30.

No court in the land is going to take that as a reasonable interpretation of the law under these circumstances.

Perhaps you would care to impart us with your wisdom as to the interpretation, rather than constantly adding criticism of others containing nothing of substance.

You post nonsense, we live in the real world, the job was quoted and done, none of that rubbish is going to get them off without paying.

The service was started by consent, all thats left is the haggling over the electrical supplies cost.

All well and good saying I post nonsense  but do tell us what the legislation means then?

As for nonsense, how do you know the service was started by consent? 

Did the OP tell us they did so via durable means or did they say “nothing in writing”?

I'm not buying the fact that I could have my house rewired having accepted a quote and then cancel the contract after the work has been completed. If the trader were then to take me to court I would only be liable for the amount they paid for any materials. 

If the trader complied with their legal obligations to give you a template piece of information and either waits 14 days beginning the day after the contract was formed to start, or gets your durable consent to start within the cancellation period, then you’d have to pay. 

If the consumer doesn’t pay and the trader seeks recovery via the small claims will the court ignore the legislation? 

Just my opinion but I suspect if there was nothing wrong about the work and the court proceedings only came about because the consumer didn’t want to pay, the claim would be decided in the traders favour.  Whilst that might not be in accordance with the wording of the legislation (and I can’t say whether it is or isn’t), courts will also take into account the policy intention behind the legislation - in this case, that is to provide consumers with recourse where the trader has not provided the goods or services to a satisfactory standard, not to provide consumers with a technicality to get out of paying for a service which has been fully provided to an acceptable standard.

justwhat

That quote looks to be OTT. i have had 3 bed houses rewired for that.

Money_Grabber13579

The OP says the quote for the electrical work came from the builder and that they’ve had no contact with the electrician. That would suggest that they’ve paid the £5,800 to the builder. I wonder how much of that was actually paid to the electrician?

Jumblebumble

Miss_moneypenny_11 said:

Hi, we have a cabin (basically a posh garden room) built in our garden, approx 20 feet by 40 feet.  

The electrician was recommended by our builder who quoted “no more than £5800.  I thought this was expensive as all we wanted was wall switches, plugs, downlights, fuse board and electrical box.  The electrical supply to the cabin was already there prior to the build.  There was a team of two when they quoted, but only one turned up and in all just six days at the most and not all day, every day, and on two occasions he brought his children!  he would turn up at 11 ish and leave by 3pm.  First fix was easy as it was basically a new build, no upper floor, nothing to remove or calve out walls etc.

They have now asked for a further £2,400 for electrical supplies.  They are just plain white switches and plugs etc.  They say the downlights were £20 each but at the very beginning I said we don’t want anything fancy.

I have asked for a breakdown of hours worked and cost per hour, but I feel we are being ripped off.  It is difficult as we only conversed with them via the builder.  He said he worked with them all the time.  We have also asked if they belong to any association.

I would appreciate any advice.

This price is absurd
I paid £1100 for our garden office to be wired
Supply and fit
Garage consumer unit
3 bank dimmer
10 Double sockets
15 dimmable Spotlights
Armoured cable from house was already in place 
If he was on site for 24 hours that equates to £240 per hour

Alderbank

Money_Grabber13579 said:

The OP says the quote for the electrical work came from the builder and that they’ve had no contact with the electrician. That would suggest that they’ve paid the £5,800 to the builder. I wonder how much of that was actually paid to the electrician?

There is interesting information on the OP's other thread  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6307026/charging-order#latest
Not mentioned in this current thread but the OP is not happy with the builder's work and has successfully sued them. Unfortunately despite losing the case the builder has been unwilling to pay up, as sometimes happens. In that other thread the OP asks about ways of actually recovering the money such as a charging order on the builder's house.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Money_Grabber13579 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

bris said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

smashinglynaive said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

If you haven’t been given information on the right to cancel (and didn’t walk into the traders place of business to form the contract) then the cancellation period is 1 year and 14 days.

If you cancel during the period and the trader has failed to provide the above information no payment is due.

So if the electrician has carried out the work with reasonable skill and care, the installation is fully tested and working, what are you saying?

Exactly what I've said, for a distance or off premises contract where the correct information specifically related to the right to cancel isn't provided the extended cancellation period applies and where the consumer cancels within the cancellation period and the trader has failed to provide the correct information mentioned the consumer is not bound to pay for any services, in part or in full, already received. 

Caveat being OP may have to pay for any goods supplied and I forgot to add the OP should formally cancel the contract via a durable medium. 

So what I think you're saying is anyone could cancel a contract after the work was done just because they didn't receive information on how to cancel? 

That's correct, if the trader fails to provide by durable means:

(l) where a right to cancel exists, the conditions, time limit and procedures for exercising that right in accordance with regulations 27 to 38;

and/or

(n) that, if the consumer exercises the right to cancel after having made a request in accordance with regulation 36(1), the consumer is to be liable to pay the trader reasonable costs in accordance with regulation 36(4);

which covers stating part of the service would need to be paid if the consumer cancels midway, there is no obligation to pay for the service.

Also for an off premises contract if the service begins within the cancellation period but the trader hasn't sought the consumer's express consent provided by the consumer via a durable medium for the service to begin within the cancellation period, there is also no obligation to pay.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/36

(6) The consumer bears no cost for supply of the service, in full or in part, in the cancellation period, if—

(a)the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, or the information on payment of that cost required by paragraph (n) of that Schedule, in accordance with Part 2, or

(b)the service is not supplied in response to a request in accordance with paragraph (1).

36.—(1) The trader must not begin the supply of a service before the end of the cancellation period provided for in regulation 30(1) unless the consumer—

(a)has made an express request, and

(b)in the case of an off-premises contract, has made the request on a durable medium.

The extended cancellation period is detailed here:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/31

Cancellation period extended for breach of information requirement

31.—(1) This regulation applies if the trader does not provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

(2) If the trader provides the consumer with that information in the period of 12 months beginning with the first day of the 14 days mentioned in regulation 30(2) to (6), but otherwise in accordance with Part 2, the cancellation period ends at the end of 14 days after the consumer receives the information.

(3) Otherwise the cancellation period ends at the end of 12 months after the day on which it would have ended under regulation 30.

No court in the land is going to take that as a reasonable interpretation of the law under these circumstances.

Perhaps you would care to impart us with your wisdom as to the interpretation, rather than constantly adding criticism of others containing nothing of substance.

You post nonsense, we live in the real world, the job was quoted and done, none of that rubbish is going to get them off without paying.

The service was started by consent, all thats left is the haggling over the electrical supplies cost.

All well and good saying I post nonsense  but do tell us what the legislation means then?

As for nonsense, how do you know the service was started by consent? 

Did the OP tell us they did so via durable means or did they say “nothing in writing”?

I'm not buying the fact that I could have my house rewired having accepted a quote and then cancel the contract after the work has been completed. If the trader were then to take me to court I would only be liable for the amount they paid for any materials. 

If the trader complied with their legal obligations to give you a template piece of information and either waits 14 days beginning the day after the contract was formed to start, or gets your durable consent to start within the cancellation period, then you’d have to pay. 

If the consumer doesn’t pay and the trader seeks recovery via the small claims will the court ignore the legislation? 

Just my opinion but I suspect if there was nothing wrong about the work and the court proceedings only came about because the consumer didn’t want to pay, the claim would be decided in the traders favour.  Whilst that might not be in accordance with the wording of the legislation (and I can’t say whether it is or isn’t), courts will also take into account the policy intention behind the legislation - in this case, that is to provide consumers with recourse where the trader has not provided the goods or services to a satisfactory standard, not to provide consumers with a technicality to get out of paying for a service which has been fully provided to an acceptable standard.

Just to clarify, it's the Consumer Rights Act that covers services being carried out to a satisfactory standard.

My quotes above are from a completely different piece of legislation, The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, which predominantly covers the information a trader must supply and the consumer's rights to cancel.

If the court is to take into account the intention of the legislation how are they to find the consumer can not cancel when this is exactly what the legislation covers?

As the legislation specifically states a trader is guilty of an offence if the trader enters into an off-premises contract to which regulation 10 applies but fails to give the consumer the information listed in paragraph (l), (m) or (n) of Schedule 2 in accordance with that regulation how can the court ignore the penalties the legislation lays out if such actions are deemed severe enough to be considered a specific offence?

Alderbank

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Money_Grabber13579 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

bris said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

smashinglynaive said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

If you haven’t been given information on the right to cancel (and didn’t walk into the traders place of business to form the contract) then the cancellation period is 1 year and 14 days.

If you cancel during the period and the trader has failed to provide the above information no payment is due.

So if the electrician has carried out the work with reasonable skill and care, the installation is fully tested and working, what are you saying?

Exactly what I've said, for a distance or off premises contract where the correct information specifically related to the right to cancel isn't provided the extended cancellation period applies and where the consumer cancels within the cancellation period and the trader has failed to provide the correct information mentioned the consumer is not bound to pay for any services, in part or in full, already received. 

Caveat being OP may have to pay for any goods supplied and I forgot to add the OP should formally cancel the contract via a durable medium. 

So what I think you're saying is anyone could cancel a contract after the work was done just because they didn't receive information on how to cancel? 

That's correct, if the trader fails to provide by durable means:

(l) where a right to cancel exists, the conditions, time limit and procedures for exercising that right in accordance with regulations 27 to 38;

and/or

(n) that, if the consumer exercises the right to cancel after having made a request in accordance with regulation 36(1), the consumer is to be liable to pay the trader reasonable costs in accordance with regulation 36(4);

which covers stating part of the service would need to be paid if the consumer cancels midway, there is no obligation to pay for the service.

Also for an off premises contract if the service begins within the cancellation period but the trader hasn't sought the consumer's express consent provided by the consumer via a durable medium for the service to begin within the cancellation period, there is also no obligation to pay.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/36

(6) The consumer bears no cost for supply of the service, in full or in part, in the cancellation period, if—

(a)the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, or the information on payment of that cost required by paragraph (n) of that Schedule, in accordance with Part 2, or

(b)the service is not supplied in response to a request in accordance with paragraph (1).

36.—(1) The trader must not begin the supply of a service before the end of the cancellation period provided for in regulation 30(1) unless the consumer—

(a)has made an express request, and

(b)in the case of an off-premises contract, has made the request on a durable medium.

The extended cancellation period is detailed here:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/31

Cancellation period extended for breach of information requirement

31.—(1) This regulation applies if the trader does not provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

(2) If the trader provides the consumer with that information in the period of 12 months beginning with the first day of the 14 days mentioned in regulation 30(2) to (6), but otherwise in accordance with Part 2, the cancellation period ends at the end of 14 days after the consumer receives the information.

(3) Otherwise the cancellation period ends at the end of 12 months after the day on which it would have ended under regulation 30.

No court in the land is going to take that as a reasonable interpretation of the law under these circumstances.

Perhaps you would care to impart us with your wisdom as to the interpretation, rather than constantly adding criticism of others containing nothing of substance.

You post nonsense, we live in the real world, the job was quoted and done, none of that rubbish is going to get them off without paying.

The service was started by consent, all thats left is the haggling over the electrical supplies cost.

All well and good saying I post nonsense  but do tell us what the legislation means then?

As for nonsense, how do you know the service was started by consent? 

Did the OP tell us they did so via durable means or did they say “nothing in writing”?

I'm not buying the fact that I could have my house rewired having accepted a quote and then cancel the contract after the work has been completed. If the trader were then to take me to court I would only be liable for the amount they paid for any materials. 

If the trader complied with their legal obligations to give you a template piece of information and either waits 14 days beginning the day after the contract was formed to start, or gets your durable consent to start within the cancellation period, then you’d have to pay. 

If the consumer doesn’t pay and the trader seeks recovery via the small claims will the court ignore the legislation? 

Just my opinion but I suspect if there was nothing wrong about the work and the court proceedings only came about because the consumer didn’t want to pay, the claim would be decided in the traders favour.  Whilst that might not be in accordance with the wording of the legislation (and I can’t say whether it is or isn’t), courts will also take into account the policy intention behind the legislation - in this case, that is to provide consumers with recourse where the trader has not provided the goods or services to a satisfactory standard, not to provide consumers with a technicality to get out of paying for a service which has been fully provided to an acceptable standard.

My quotes above are from a completely different piece of legislation, The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, which predominantly covers the information a trader must supply and the consumer's rights to cancel.

If the court is to take into account the intention of the legislation how are they to find the consumer can not cancel when this is exactly what the legislation covers?

You are fond of selectively quoting from these regulations.
Do you think it would be useful for other readers if you also quoted 'Limits of application: general 6' from The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, which state:

These Regulations do not apply to a contract, to the extent that it is for the creation of immovable property or for the construction of new buildings, or the construction of substantially new buildings by the conversion of existing buildings

The Government Guidance to these regulations helpfully interpret the above as:

Which sectors are not covered?
Contracts for construction and sale of immovable property including building of new properties are exempt from the provisions in the regulations

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Alderbank said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Money_Grabber13579 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

bris said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

smashinglynaive said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DB1904 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

If you haven’t been given information on the right to cancel (and didn’t walk into the traders place of business to form the contract) then the cancellation period is 1 year and 14 days.

If you cancel during the period and the trader has failed to provide the above information no payment is due.

So if the electrician has carried out the work with reasonable skill and care, the installation is fully tested and working, what are you saying?

Exactly what I've said, for a distance or off premises contract where the correct information specifically related to the right to cancel isn't provided the extended cancellation period applies and where the consumer cancels within the cancellation period and the trader has failed to provide the correct information mentioned the consumer is not bound to pay for any services, in part or in full, already received. 

Caveat being OP may have to pay for any goods supplied and I forgot to add the OP should formally cancel the contract via a durable medium. 

So what I think you're saying is anyone could cancel a contract after the work was done just because they didn't receive information on how to cancel? 

That's correct, if the trader fails to provide by durable means:

(l) where a right to cancel exists, the conditions, time limit and procedures for exercising that right in accordance with regulations 27 to 38;

and/or

(n) that, if the consumer exercises the right to cancel after having made a request in accordance with regulation 36(1), the consumer is to be liable to pay the trader reasonable costs in accordance with regulation 36(4);

which covers stating part of the service would need to be paid if the consumer cancels midway, there is no obligation to pay for the service.

Also for an off premises contract if the service begins within the cancellation period but the trader hasn't sought the consumer's express consent provided by the consumer via a durable medium for the service to begin within the cancellation period, there is also no obligation to pay.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/36

(6) The consumer bears no cost for supply of the service, in full or in part, in the cancellation period, if—

(a)the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, or the information on payment of that cost required by paragraph (n) of that Schedule, in accordance with Part 2, or

(b)the service is not supplied in response to a request in accordance with paragraph (1).

36.—(1) The trader must not begin the supply of a service before the end of the cancellation period provided for in regulation 30(1) unless the consumer—

(a)has made an express request, and

(b)in the case of an off-premises contract, has made the request on a durable medium.

The extended cancellation period is detailed here:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/31

Cancellation period extended for breach of information requirement

31.—(1) This regulation applies if the trader does not provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

(2) If the trader provides the consumer with that information in the period of 12 months beginning with the first day of the 14 days mentioned in regulation 30(2) to (6), but otherwise in accordance with Part 2, the cancellation period ends at the end of 14 days after the consumer receives the information.

(3) Otherwise the cancellation period ends at the end of 12 months after the day on which it would have ended under regulation 30.

No court in the land is going to take that as a reasonable interpretation of the law under these circumstances.

Perhaps you would care to impart us with your wisdom as to the interpretation, rather than constantly adding criticism of others containing nothing of substance.

You post nonsense, we live in the real world, the job was quoted and done, none of that rubbish is going to get them off without paying.

The service was started by consent, all thats left is the haggling over the electrical supplies cost.

All well and good saying I post nonsense  but do tell us what the legislation means then?

As for nonsense, how do you know the service was started by consent? 

Did the OP tell us they did so via durable means or did they say “nothing in writing”?

I'm not buying the fact that I could have my house rewired having accepted a quote and then cancel the contract after the work has been completed. If the trader were then to take me to court I would only be liable for the amount they paid for any materials. 

If the trader complied with their legal obligations to give you a template piece of information and either waits 14 days beginning the day after the contract was formed to start, or gets your durable consent to start within the cancellation period, then you’d have to pay. 

If the consumer doesn’t pay and the trader seeks recovery via the small claims will the court ignore the legislation? 

Just my opinion but I suspect if there was nothing wrong about the work and the court proceedings only came about because the consumer didn’t want to pay, the claim would be decided in the traders favour.  Whilst that might not be in accordance with the wording of the legislation (and I can’t say whether it is or isn’t), courts will also take into account the policy intention behind the legislation - in this case, that is to provide consumers with recourse where the trader has not provided the goods or services to a satisfactory standard, not to provide consumers with a technicality to get out of paying for a service which has been fully provided to an acceptable standard.

My quotes above are from a completely different piece of legislation, The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, which predominantly covers the information a trader must supply and the consumer's rights to cancel.

If the court is to take into account the intention of the legislation how are they to find the consumer can not cancel when this is exactly what the legislation covers?

You are fond of selectively quoting from these regulations.
Do you think it would be useful for other readers if you also quoted 'Limits of application: general 6' from The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, which state:

These Regulations do not apply to a contract, to the extent that it is for the creation of immovable property or for the construction of new buildings, or the construction of substantially new buildings by the conversion of existing buildings

The Government Guidance to these regulations helpfully interpret the above as:

Which sectors are not covered?
Contracts for construction and sale of immovable property including building of new properties are exempt from the provisions in the regulations

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/429300/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf


I am a builder and have agreed a contract with a local resident to build a large extension at the back of their house and a summer house at the bottom of their garden? Does the ‘creation of immovable property’ exemption mean that the regulations won’t apply to the goods and services I am providing?

No, you will be subject to the regulations. The exemption refers to ‘standalone’ residential properties such as new builds and substantial conversion work comparable to constructing a new building such as flat conversions. Extensions, conservatories and the like do not create new rights to the property but simply extend an existing property, so the regulations apply.

Only my view, but I don't believe a garden room meets the criteria of immovable property under the gov guidance, garden rooms do not meet the typically accepted definition of "residential property" and would be more commonly classed as the "summer house" example given. 

If the OP has build a residential property rather than a garden room in their garden then you are correct that the cancellation regs wouldn't apply.

Anthony147

To be blunt and I say it as I don’t think it’s been said already.
Sounds like the builder is just straight up trousering the money quoted as the electric work stated has a market price around that of the “extra” being requested.

Unless there’s some very involved work - Wiring up to an existing supply and ancillaries for an outbuilding should be about that number (£2400).