Octopus/Eon/Regulator

OldbutnotDaft

Has anybody else come across this problem? I have a Liberty Secure 100 Gas Meter (installed by Utilita for the previous tenant). I had a dual fuel account with E-on and had never had any problems with them (apart from the high bills - which is why I switched to Octopus this year). My gas heating bills have always been on the high side (compared with my previous house).  I have no problem with the electric.  The gas meter is a SMETS 1 which at that time could not be remotely upgraded with software to meet SMETS 2 specifications and be connected to the central network. I only had a meter reader a couple of times so the bills from Eon were sometimes estimated. I did take some readings myself, but the meter is near the floor of a dark cupboard - you have to press button 9 (which I can't even see) to wake it up and it is impossible to read. The onlty way is to lie on the floor with a head-torch on and point another torch at the display. This is not easy (the display cycles through some options which are not on the display long enough to read) then I have to try and get back off the floor!. When I switched to Octopus, I had to take a final read for Eon and a sense-check read for Octopus (this was hell). The regulator accepted the final gas read which I think was 6734 on 31 July. When Octopus connected to the gas meter for the first time on 4 Aug the read was 5955. Having noticed my account with Octopus was in credit, I requested a partial refund. Octopus have disputed this (don't know whether this was with Eon, the third-party regulator, or just waffle). There have been various excuses. I worked in an office long enough to know when there is stuff going on behind the scenes so I have been patient, but I am no longer in a generous mood.  If the opening SMART meter reading was wrong, what is the purpose of a SMART meter's existence?  

QrizB

A curious situation.

Can you share more history of your gas meter readings, say for the past 2-3 years?

[Deleted User]

I assume that you mean the data collector as Ofgem is the Regulator. Has your meter been enrolled onto the DCC Network? If not this may explain the issue. Prior to SMETS2, Octopus’ meter of choice was Secure which they can read outwith the DCC network. You appear to have overpaid your old supplier and Octopus is reasonably not charging you for units consumed until the meter index passes the opening reading. The true cost to you is the difference in unit prices times the Opening Reading minus the meter index reading. You might actually be better off.

By way of example, a few years ago, I ended up overpaying E.oN by £70. The actual cost difference was £2.34.

MWT

It sounds like the smart meter was just fine, but the reading you provided at the time was wrong.

I can understand how that happened given the location of the meter though.

So the net result would be that if the opening reading was higher than the current reading, and used by both the losing and gaining providers, then you would not have anything to pay other than the standing charge until the meter moved beyond the incorrect reading.

The initial reaction from Octopus would have been to lodge an objection to the meter reading as they would not want to be paying for gas supplied to you that you had presumably already paid the losing provider for...

Was that the case? ...it would have been noticeable as it was probably around £275 at that time for that amount of gas over and above your normal bill.

OldbutnotDaft

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I am sure this is a coincidence, but a few hours after I posted this there was a flurry of activity on my Octopus account.  I had paper bills from Eon for years at my old house, but I opted for online billing in this house (big mistake when you don't have a printer).   After the opening smart reading with Octopus in Aug, my gas bill was credited with £263.22.  By 31 Aug my Octopus account was in credit by £328.07 so I requested a partial refund. The refund was going through then it was stopped as they said there was a false credit on my gas.  I pay by direct debit (Super Green EnergyTariff).  By Oct my balance was £430.20 so I tried for a partial refund again. Same thing happened. Their website is very good, the staff are helpful, and I really want to give them a good review, but I still can't help feeling they are taking the Octopis.   Best wishes to you and your families for the New Year. 

OldbutnotDaft

This is how it goes with Octopus.   I request a partial refund of the credit on my account.  Someone replies to say that my account is indeed in credit and I can request a refund (which will take 10 working days).  There is a flurry of activity and new billings appear.  The amount of credit on my account goes down slightly, but it is still healthy and will be topped-up soon by my monthly direct debit.  A message appears on my billings page saying my request for a refund is being processed.  I wait patiently for 10 days.  The message disappears from my account.  Then someone sends me an email saying the request has been refused.  The latest excuse being: "...we have contacted the other supplier to let them know that the reading doesn't look right, and they didn't agree....It might be worth to get in touch with your previous supplier so we can request another dispute".. I have now been through this process three times and have yet to see any money.   Soon, I will receive the email from the team leader saying they have noticed I have been communicating with them.  It will have some smiley faces I can click-on to indicate how I am feeling.

This is how I feel.  Many years ago, I entered a competition to win some money.  I was pleased to receive a letter by first class post telling me I had won a prize.  This turned out to be a VHS Video:  Coronation Street - Deirdre, "The Happy Years".  How I wish I had kept that Video.

[Deleted User]

OldbutnotDaft said:

This is how it goes with Octopus.   I request a partial refund of the credit on my account.  Someone replies to say that my account is indeed in credit and I can request a refund (which will take 10 working days).  There is a flurry of activity and new billings appear.  The amount of credit on my account goes down slightly, but it is still healthy and will be topped-up soon by my monthly direct debit.  A message appears on my billings page saying my request for a refund is being processed.  I wait patiently for 10 days.  The message disappears from my account.  Then someone sends me an email saying the request has been refused.  The latest excuse being: "...we have contacted the other supplier to let them know that the reading doesn't look right, and they didn't agree....It might be worth to get in touch with your previous supplier so we can request another dispute".. I have now been through this process three times and have yet to see any money.   Soon, I will receive the email from the team leader saying they have noticed I have been communicating with them.  It will have some smiley faces I can click-on to indicate how I am feeling.

This is how I feel.  Many years ago, I entered a competition to win some money.  I was pleased to receive a letter by first class post telling me I had won a prize.  This turned out to be a VHS Video:  Coronation Street - Deirdre, "The Happy Years".  How I wish I had kept that Video.

If you are unhappy then email greg@octopus.energy and one his senior team will take on the issue. There are industry procedures to deal with disputed readings so I am not sure why you are being asked to get involved in what is a dispute between two suppliers. 

MWT

It does seem like resolving the disputed reading is key to getting the refund or not though...

If the opening/closing meter readings were not disputed then the refund is clearly due.

If the meter readings are disputed successfully then the refund would be due from E.ON, not Octopus...

[Deleted User]

It is worth the OP having a read of this blog:

https://octopus.energy/blog/secret-life-opening-meter-reading/

On a switch of supplier meter readings are not just accepted they are validated by an industry-accredited data collector and then passed to both suppliers by industry data flows to be used as the opening/closing reading. An Agreed Readings Dispute can only be raised in the following circumstances:


For a ‘Read Dispute’ to be possible, there needs to be a big enough gap between the reading used and the reading you gave. This is called a ‘tolerance’. If the gap is too small, it’s known as being ‘within tolerance’.

The tolerance for an electricity reading is 250 kWh or more. 

For example if you submitted a reading of 01000 and the estimate used was 01300, there's a difference of 300 kWh and a reading dispute is possible. 

For gas meters measured in cubic meters (m3), the tolerance is 108 units.

For example if you submitted a reading of 00010 m3 and the estimate used was 00100 m3, the difference is 90 units and therefore within tolerance. 

For gas meters measured in cubic feet (ft3), the tolerance is 38 units. 

For example if you submitted a reading of 00360 ft3 and the estimate used was 00400 ft3, the difference is 40 units and a reading dispute is possible. 

A ‘Read Dispute’ is usually started by the new supplier.

If E.oN has used the industry reading of 5955 to close the account, then the Final Account HAS to be settled using this figure. That said, I accept that in the circumstances described an ARD is possible. Suppliers advise that this is a process that can take up to 12 weeks if the two suppliers cannot come to an accommodation.

MWT

[Deleted User] said:

If E.oN has used the industry reading of 5955 to close the account, then the Final Account HAS to be settled using this figure. That said, I accept that in the circumstances described an ARD is possible. Suppliers advise that this is a process that can take up to 12 weeks if the two suppliers cannot come to an accommodation.

The problem seems to be that the industry process seems to have accepted the incorrect 6734 reading, or at least that is the impression the OP gives, which means they have overpaid on the final bill with E.ON and are currently trying to recover the resulting over payments from the DD building up at Octopus while the meter reading grows to eventually pass by the incorrect reading...

If the Octopus opening reading is 6734 that would confirm it...

wild666

[Deleted User] said:

It is worth the OP having a read of this blog:

https://octopus.energy/blog/secret-life-opening-meter-reading/

On a switch of supplier meter readings are not just accepted they are validated by an industry-accredited data collector and then passed to both suppliers by industry data flows to be used as the opening/closing reading. An Agreed Readings Dispute can only be raised in the following circumstances:


For a ‘Read Dispute’ to be possible, there needs to be a big enough gap between the reading used and the reading you gave. This is called a ‘tolerance’. If the gap is too small, it’s known as being ‘within tolerance’.

The tolerance for an electricity reading is 250 kWh or more. 

For example if you submitted a reading of 01000 and the estimate used was 01300, there's a difference of 300 kWh and a reading dispute is possible. 

For gas meters measured in cubic meters (m3), the tolerance is 108 units.

For example if you submitted a reading of 00010 m3 and the estimate used was 00100 m3, the difference is 90 units and therefore within tolerance. 

For gas meters measured in cubic feet (ft3), the tolerance is 38 units. 

For example if you submitted a reading of 00360 ft3 and the estimate used was 00400 ft3, the difference is 40 units and a reading dispute is possible. 

A ‘Read Dispute’ is usually started by the new supplier.

If E.oN has used the industry reading of 5955 to close the account, then the Final Account HAS to be settled using this figure. That said, I accept that in the circumstances described an ARD is possible. Suppliers advise that this is a process that can take up to 12 weeks if the two suppliers cannot come to an accommodation.

I always send final readings as close to midnight on the final day and submit the final reading as my opening readings. The only thing that can happen is that the readings can be 1 kWh out for electric and 1 unit, 11.3 kWh, for gas at the present prices that could be around £1.20. I also take a photo of the meter readings then if they want to dispute them I have evidence especially when the photo shows the time of when it was taken in the data.