Sheriff court claim, Have I got the correct template?

Le_Kirk

Gullzter said:

I don't have a response in regards to being the driver at the time as I haven't been given specific dates, just the date of 8 PCNs between x and x , I also need to have my response in by 19/12 (2 days) so I am a bit stuck for time 
Afaik in Scotland I wouldn't need to name another driver so would i need to prove I wasn't driving at the time?

That is a Sunday!  In England the legal profession does not count Sundays as a working day!

Redx

Gullzter said:

Redx said:

It is extremely useful to prove that you were not the driver at the time , in any court case , in any nation ! Regardless !

The point to focus on is that the claimant must prove their claim , or fail , especially because POFA does not apply yet in Scotland

The claimant plus the sheriff could decide 51% to 49% that you were the likely driver , given that 8 PCNs are involved. I hope that your V5C is up to date ? Because not updating it is a common cause of missing documents. A SAR to the DPO at ECP should reveal where they went etc

But do not focus on the procedures South of the border ( the wall ) , we don't have guides or experience for claims in Scotland , it's relatively new , although there have been a few cases this year on here , plus the infamous Carly Mackie case a few years ago !!

You may have many questions , but few people who come here will know the answers , apart from common sense

It's a by product if devolution , like the COVID rules , different for each nation

Good luck

Thanks again for the response, I won't be able to prove anything without the given dates, which I'd require a SAR by the sounds of it.
From my research so far, and you rightly mention it seems they'd need to prove who was driving at the time, if I flat out deny responsibility of being the driver, they wouldn't be able to prove this and in Scotland I wouldn't have to name who may have been driving, if I have got that correct?

So if I go ahead and mention all the above, and at the same time I request SAR from the courts aswell as the claimant, or would it be worthwhile just disregarding the SAR in the hope the claim gets thrown out instantly as I have never received any PCNs and there's no evidence I was the driver? 
Ps the V5 would have been registered at the correct address. 

The SAR goes to the DPO at ECP , nobody else , I have no idea why you would end a SAR to the court , no idea at all !!

Yes they should have to prove who was driving , but unless you deny being the driver , under oath , they can construe your Defence as probably the driver , based on the balance of probabilities , OTBOP , a valid legal argument , which is why with 8 PCNs ,they have a valid point , unless you swear under oath that you were not the driver , because perjury is a criminal offence !

I did outline this with the percentage figures , which is how we ended up with BoJo Brexit !!

There is no legal requirement to name the driver , but a no comment answer puts them back to OTBOP !  The merry go round continues !

Not receiving the PCN s is not a legal argument in any defence , they are deemed to be delivered 2 days later , to the address obtained from the DVLA , the registered keeper address

I agree that it is unlikely that there is any evidence of who was driving , but it can be inferred OTBOP , unless categorically denied , on oath , no perjury !

Edit , Other threads below

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6303976/simple-procedure-horizon-parking/p1

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6305544/vcs-simple-procedure-notice-of-claim-for-pcn-ntk-scotland

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6055602/scotland-euro-car-parks-ltd-simple-procedure-claims-received/p1

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6206937/smart-parking-scotland-simple-procedure-notice-of-claim/p1

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6242906/vcs-fine-in-scotland/p1

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6229745/to-contact-private-company-after-simple-procedure-form

Umkomaas

Ps the V5 would have been registered at the correct address. 

If that is correct, I cannot believe that 8 separate PCNs never arrived with you. Please check the V5C, you don't want anything else not arriving (like police speeding tickets for example). 

Old_Slobberchops

Gullzter said:

BrownTrout said:

To respond to the claim, you must complete the Response Form and send it to the sheriff court (named) and to the claimant.

If you were not the driver you should clearly state this in the form. Be clear and precise! No flanel etc etc......

Thanks for the response, does it need to be a detailed response like the template I've linked?
Or will a simple, "I was not the driver during these alleged offences" be sufficient?

Responses to a Simple Procedure in Scotland need to be a little more detailed than that in County Court and should include any evidence you can present at this point to back up your claim. Expect the sheriff to ask to see insurance documents. Some are also asking for a list of known drivers using the vehicle. The more you state now, the less likely you are to get a testy order from the sheriff. Also challenge the Claimant to proof of what they claim, adequate signage and anything that can cast doubt on their claim. Not the driver defences are tough to win in Scottish courts unless you have solid evidence that casts doubt as the sheriffs are wise to it and will make orders.

Coupon-mad

I was just going to suggest the OP sent a pm to @Old_Slobberchops and here he is!

patient_dream

You say that Yuill + Kyle are involved

Yuill + Kyle on their web site state "We are one of Scotland's leading debt recovery and credit control law firms. Our track record for successful recoveries"

That's all very well but do they not understand that they must prove who the driver was ?

Euro don't know, how would Yuill + Kyle know ?

Such a case by Yuill + Kyle could well knock them off their perch as "one of Scotland's leading debt recovery "

Best Yuill + Kyle ask Euro who was the driver to avoid egg on their face

Old_Slobberchops

patient_dream said:

That's all very well but do they not understand that they must prove who the driver was ?

Euro don't know, how would Yuill + Kyle know ?

Such a case by Yuill + Kyle could well knock them off their perch as "one of Scotland's leading debt recovery "

Best Yuill + Kyle ask Euro who was the driver to avoid egg on their face

Whilst that is true, they will likely argue that with 8 tickets and no denial from the defendant that they were not the driver, on the balance of probabilities it is likely they were and the sheriff will likely grill the D at this point on it, possibly asking directly if they parked the car. So its best to get in first with evidence if they have it and see off that line.

Gullzter

Old_Slobberchops said:

Gullzter said:

BrownTrout said:

To respond to the claim, you must complete the Response Form and send it to the sheriff court (named) and to the claimant.

If you were not the driver you should clearly state this in the form. Be clear and precise! No flanel etc etc......

Thanks for the response, does it need to be a detailed response like the template I've linked?
Or will a simple, "I was not the driver during these alleged offences" be sufficient?

Responses to a Simple Procedure in Scotland need to be a little more detailed than that in County Court and should include any evidence you can present at this point to back up your claim. Expect the sheriff to ask to see insurance documents. Some are also asking for a list of known drivers using the vehicle. The more you state now, the less likely you are to get a testy order from the sheriff. Also challenge the Claimant to proof of what they claim, adequate signage and anything that can cast doubt on their claim. Not the driver defences are tough to win in Scottish courts unless you have solid evidence that casts doubt as the sheriffs are wise to it and will make orders.

Thanks for the the response, unfortunately its hard to provide proof of anything when I don't have any dates/times of alleged offences, no photos of the vehicle etc.
So how then can I deny this claim and ask for evidence simultaneously, am I denying the alleged offence on the basis I haven't even seen any evidence to prove anything or just plain outright denial of the alleged offences? 
I will certainly be challenging them on the claim, I just hoped there would be a template for some of the challenges I could come up with, especially when I've been advised on keeping it simple by the citizens advice, which seems to be regarded here as the incorrect procedure.

BrownTrout

Be honest with yourself. You will know if you were the driver OR not. 
If you were not then write a defence based on the above then do a sar and get the evidence together asap.
If you were the driver then dont do the above
You dont really have a lot to lose with no time to play with.

Coupon-mad

Yep, you either recognise that car park or you don't, and will be aware of what happened eight times.