New Gas Boiler

Cressida100

jimjames said:

Over £6k sounds extortionate but that's the BG price. If you're changing to combi then it will involve more pipework changes as already mentioned. Why do you need to change from standard to combi, is there a reason?

It also looks like you're paying for new radiators, are they to replace existing or new ones? You will find a local plumber to do that much cheaper than BG.

Yes I was going to change to combi as I have been told they are cheaper to run. Although I was a bit concerned that the surveyor said there may be leakage due to pressure? My radiators are existing ones from 1950's (mostly) without thermostats, my home is a semi-d with one bathroom and toilet and electric shower. At present there's 2 adults here but that will probably be down to one in the next couple of years. Would it be better and cheaper to stay with normal boiler? It did seem as though there would be a lot of new pipework. My gas meter is in the front porch and the boiler is some distance away in a utility area at the back of the garage (wall separated). The surveyor did say the pipe would have to go through the garage. If I stayed with the same type of boiler would they use the existing pipework? Thanks for taking the time to reply. 

Cressida100

BUFF said:

Cressida100 said:

Sorry to jump on your thread @Archergirl. I've just received the following quote for British gas to replace my Potterton F60 (25 years old) as below. I am also going to get some local firms to quote. 

This is what they sent and I would really appreciate some advice as to whether this is a reasonable cost for this work or whether it is ridiculous. My house is a 1950s semi-detached. 

Your Boiler Worcester Bosch Greenstar 30Si Compact ErP £1,199.00 Your Installation Essentials Your Installation and associated work
We will replace your existing boiler with a new combi boiler in the same place or relocate it to your airing cupboard. We will also arrange for the materials to be delivered at a convenient time.
During the installation we will connect all the pipe work to your new boiler and carry out any flue related building work as detailed in your technical specification. We will adapt your existing system to make it compatible with the new boiler and where possible we will remove your water tanks and cylinder if they are no longer required. We will complete your installation to the highest quality as well as removing all waste material from your property.
Once the work is complete we will make sure all the relevant certification is sent to you. £2,209.82 We will install your horizontal flue including any necessary flue accessories to the correct standards £199.00
We will connect the boiler condense waste pipe to a suitable internal waste pipe £99.00 Worcester Keyless Filling Link £26.00
System water treatment & Systemcleanse £99.00
Electrical Work We will have an electrician on site who will carry out the electrical connections to your boiler to the required regulations £199.00 Your Boiler Aftercare British Gas 5 Year Warranty - Year one includes repairs for your boiler controls and central heating. Years two to five includes repairs for your boiler only (subject to a chargeable annual service on the boiler) £0.00 Customer Information Socket and See electrical test carried out. Result satisfactory £0.00 No asbestos identified (see Installation Notes and Terms and Conditions for further details) £0.0
Hive Active Heating Hive Thermostat + 6 Free Months of Hive Heating Plus Service (Single Zone Only) with Professional Installation Included For Free £179.00

You can get up to a 10 year warranty on that boiler if fitted by a Worcester approved installer https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/boilers/directory/greenstar-si-compact

Afaik Hive can't communicate with the Worcester EMS bus (similar to Opentherm but proprietary) so you won't be able to eke out the last bit of ultimate efficiency from the boiler unless using a Worcester EasyControl. 

Thanks that's useful information about Hive. I have a lot to learn. 

savers_united

The problem in going with BG is that they are more pricey and do everything by the book, it's not a bad thing but you pay for it when the alternatives are no big issue. 

When we got quoted in 2019 for a new boiler (like for like combi swap), they added all sorts of extras that would be needed such as scaffold to change the flue as the existing flue was fitted in the attic and to rewire the electrical feed to the boiler so that the isolation switch was next to the boiler rather than in the next room.

Just those 2 items added £950 to the job, and they could not supply our preferred boiler (Ideal vogue max), they seem to deal mainly with worchester.

Got 2 local guys round, both recommended the Ideal and as registered fitters could offer a 12 year warranty instead of the 5 being offered by BG on the Worchester.

Their quotes ranged between £1950 - £2150 depending on controls chosen. The BG quote for the same job but different boiler (in my view lesser spec, reduced warranty but same price to buy trade) was in total £4450, reduced to £4150 if we took their service plan.

Have had 2 services since install with the same local guys and could not be happier with the performance and reassurance of the remaining 10 year warranty. Don't really see how paying £2k more to BG would have made any difference. 

FreeBear

Cressida100 said: My radiators are existing ones from 1950's (mostly) without thermostats, my home is a semi-d with one bathroom and toilet and electric shower.

I would expect much of the pipework to be old imperial sizes - This will require imperial<->metric adapters where old & new pipes join. Most plumbers would expect such challenges and come prepared. If any pipework disappears into concrete floors, I'd seriously consider rerouting new pipes. Copper has a nasty habit of corroding when in contact with concrete unless well protected.

Cressida100

FreeBear said:

Cressida100 said: My radiators are existing ones from 1950's (mostly) without thermostats, my home is a semi-d with one bathroom and toilet and electric shower.

I would expect much of the pipework to be old imperial sizes - This will require imperial<->metric adapters where old & new pipes join. Most plumbers would expect such challenges and come prepared. If any pipework disappears into concrete floors, I'd seriously consider rerouting new pipes. Copper has a nasty habit of corroding when in contact with concrete unless well protected.

Thank you. I have suspended floors. I am still working in Imperial myself I've just spoken to a local plumber who was very helpful and did seem to push towards the combi boiler rather than a conventional type. He thought I would save money on energy bills long term. I am not trying to get the cheapest price but want the installation carried out with the least amount of hassle.  

gsmh

I would recommend Vaillant. You will have a Vaillant installer near by. I’ve had a Vaillant for over 20 years and just had a new one fitted. Really reliable. 

BUFF

[Deleted User] said:

BUFF said:

Afaik Hive can't communicate with the Worcester EMS bus (similar to Opentherm but proprietary) so you won't be able to eke out the last bit of ultimate efficiency from the boiler unless using a Worcester EasyControl. 

Technology has moved on: whether these devices are a good idea is another matter. The Opentherm protocol is not a fixed standard and it is up to the boiler manufacturer which protocols it decides to use. For example, when there is a HW demand then Opentherm will demand 93C which should be restricted by the TMaxSet set in the boiler. Not all boilers restrict the heating demand as they should. Boilers from Dutch manufacturers (eg; Atag and Intergas) are usually fully Opentherm compliant (as it is mandated in The Netherlands):

https://myboiler.com/opentherm/worcester-bosch-opentherm/

I am aware of that (Nefit is a Dutch Bosch-owned company hence why that device exists). 
However, if you are buying a complete new system as well as controls & using a Worcester boiler it makes sense to get Worcester controls a) you get full boiler control without putting another (unwarrantied) device in the loop b) the Worcester controls can be warrantied as long as the boiler (potentially up to 12 years) c) Worcester EasyControl is available for ~£160, so not too different in price for Hive/Tado etc.

Reed_Richards

I would be very wary of using a combi boiler if there is a long pipe run between the boiler and your hot taps.  If the new pipework goes from the boiler to where your hot water cylinder used to be and from there to the taps things could be very bad.  I bought a house with a combi boiler that had been plumbed that way and I had to run-off at least a bucket full of cold water trapped in the pipes before the water out of a hot tap would run hot.  And that wastes a lot of energy because a bucket full of hot water ends up trapped in the pipes and that heat is wasted if the water has cooled down before you run the tap again.

gsmh

Reed_Richards said:

I would be very wary of using a combi boiler if there is a long pipe run between the boiler and your hot taps.  If the new pipework goes from the boiler to where your hot water cylinder used to be and from there to the taps things could be very bad.  I bought a house with a combi boiler that had been plumbed that way and I had to run-off at least a bucket full of cold water trapped in the pipes before the water out of a hot tap would run hot.  And that wastes a lot of energy because a bucket full of hot water ends up trapped in the pipes and that heat is wasted if the water has cooled down before you run the tap again.

Wouldn't that be the same if you use a hot water tank? The pipework from the tank to the taps would be the same as from the combi boiler to the taps.

Reed_Richards

gsmh said:

Reed_Richards said:

I would be very wary of using a combi boiler if there is a long pipe run between the boiler and your hot taps.  If the new pipework goes from the boiler to where your hot water cylinder used to be and from there to the taps things could be very bad.  I bought a house with a combi boiler that had been plumbed that way and I had to run-off at least a bucket full of cold water trapped in the pipes before the water out of a hot tap would run hot.  And that wastes a lot of energy because a bucket full of hot water ends up trapped in the pipes and that heat is wasted if the water has cooled down before you run the tap again.

Wouldn't that be the same if you use a hot water tank? The pipework from the tank to the taps would be the same as from the combi boiler to the taps.

Absolutely not.  The plumber repurposed one of the two pipes that formerly took water from the boiler to the hot water cylinder in the centre of the house (and back) and plumbed that into the hot water feed to the house where the cylinder had been.  Even though the boiler was very close to the kitchen tap the hot water had to go from the boiler to the centre of the house (in a 22 mm pipe) then all the way back to the kitchen.  This more than doubled the volume of water in the pipes to almost every hot tap!

My point is that a retrofit combi will not necessarily save you money and will not necessarily give you hot water without a very long wait.