Property entered without our permission

canaldumidi

lookstraightahead said:

canaldumidi said:

It's a breach of tenancy law, but that is not the same as criminal law. The remedy would be an application to a court for compensation (if there was a financial loss) and/or a court order preventing a repeat (and then any repeat would be contempt of court, which IS criminal),

There's no burgalry, theft, assault, breaking and entering, criminaldamage, or other crimal law broken.

Trespass is not a criminal matter.

Hence, while no one here is arguing that it is right, that is wy the police will not be interested (and rightly so).

Yes I stand corrected. 

It just doesn't make sense that anyone can walk into anyone else's house and so long as they don't actually break or damage or attack anyone, it's ok.

Also feeling threatened is very subjective.  If someone had just had a nosey through my house and left again, and I was aware of if, I would feel threatened.

I would think the police ignoring it would be a bit risky. 

Most tenancy agreements contain a clause granting the landlord a right of access in certain circumstances. That might be in emergency (though the law is very unclear as to what that means!), or for marketing/viewings (typically in the last monthor two of a tenancy), and/or for necessary maintenance (gas inspections, fixing broken roof tiles etc).

Plus of course the LL has a statutory duty to do some of these things and can be prosecuted for not doing them.

Against that, a tenant has an automatic implied right to 'quiet enyoyment' of the property (nothing to do with silence - means no undue interference), and these LL Vs tenant rights both apply, sometimes conflicting.

But that is why where a LL has overstepped the mark and breached the Quiet Enjoyment right without good reason, we often sugest the tenant change the locks. That way the tenant can take control, grant access when reasonable (eg the annual gas inspection) whilst ensuring the LL does not take the p**s.

wilfred30

lookstraightahead said:

canaldumidi said:

It's a breach of tenancy law, but that is not the same as criminal law. The remedy would be an application to a court for compensation (if there was a financial loss) and/or a court order preventing a repeat (and then any repeat would be contempt of court, which IS criminal),

There's no burgalry, theft, assault, breaking and entering, criminaldamage, or other crimal law broken.

Trespass is not a criminal matter.

Hence, while no one here is arguing that it is right, that is wy the police will not be interested (and rightly so).

Yes I stand corrected. 

It just doesn't make sense that anyone can walk into anyone else's house and so long as they don't actually break or damage or attack anyone, it's ok.

Also feeling threatened is very subjective.  If someone had just had a nosey through my house and left again, and I was aware of if, I would feel threatened.

I would think the police ignoring it would be a bit risky. 

But ...... whilst it is the OP's 'home' during their tenancy, it is not their house as it doesn't belong to them.  Maybe that's the difference.

TripleH

I think the key thing is that the house was empty. I suspect the landlord / agent was being a little naive (benefit of the doubt) here.

The Op had moved out and (I believe) let the landlord know so they went round to check up on the property let's say yo make sure it was secure and didn't need any unreported repairs.

Were they wrong, yes, but I don't think this is quite in the same vein as letting yourself in to a property when you know the tenant is still living there.

Section62

lookstraightahead said:

It just doesn't make sense that anyone can walk into anyone else's house and so long as they don't actually break or damage or attack anyone, it's ok.

You keep on using "ok" as if that is what other people are saying.  They aren't.

You need to differentiate between random strangers, and people who may have reasonable grounds for entering a property.

You need to differentiate between people who have a 'good' reason to enter a property, vs people with ill-intent.

You need to differentiate between a property which has people inside, vs one which is empty.

You need to differentiate between entry by force, and entry using a legitimately held key (or unlocked door).

All the above create shades of grey over whether or not a specific entry is "ok", or unlawful, or a criminal offence.


If you'd collapsed on the floor with a heart attack and a random stranger sees you, smashes a window and climbs into your house to come to your aid, then it would be churlish to demand they are prosecuted for 'breaking and entering' - hence the law acknowledges these shades of grey, and law enforcement is applied with common sense depending on the circumstances involved.

Ditzy_Mitzy

lookstraightahead said:

peter3hg said:

lookstraightahead said:

Murphybear said:

lookstraightahead said:

Thrugelmir said:

roaduser3189 said:

I have contacted the police and they weren't particularly helpful. 

What were you expecting them to do? 

The same as if any house had been broken into 

If someone entered using a key they have not broken in.  If they had smashed the door in the police may have been a bit more interested. 

So if I leave my car door unlocked it's ok for someone to sit in it, go through the contents of the boot and the glove compartment?

Or if I leave my back door open and someone comes in in the middle of the night while I'm asleep, uses the loo, rearranges the furniture, it's not an offence?

the op hasn't "moved out" until 8 December.

I'm honestly intrigued. It appears that if you rent, it's ok for people to come into your house without your permission.

is it ok for anyone with access to a key to my home to come in at any time, or their mates?

There is a big difference between it not being ok and it being illegal.

What offence is it that you think has been committed?
Trespass is a civil matter so the police won't generally get involved in that.
It isn't burglary as that is trespass with the intent or result of stealing something, assaulting somebody or causing criminal damage.
It also isn't criminal damage as they have entered with a key.

I don't think anybody is saying that it is right that somebody entered their house, just that it isn't a police matter.

Ok (and I'm genuinely really surprised it isn't illegal). What if It was an elderly person, let's say my mum who is in her eighties. She gets up in the middle of the night to find someone in her kitchen, sitting at the kitchen table with a brew. Then they leave. Should she call the police?

A family friend had a party once and days later someone came into the house, rifled through the drawers etc, but they couldn't find anything missing. The police were definitely involved then as I remember it. 

It's not like the op has moved out officially.

Trespass to land is a civil tort, as noted by others.  The police, generally speaking, have no powers in relation to it.  There are circumstances in which the police can act, but these are specific and irrelevant to the matter under discussion.  

Your car example is likely to count as vehicle interference under Section 9 of the Criminal Attempts Act 1981, but that offence only applies to vehicles, or things carried in or on.  

The man at the kitchen table with the cup of tea, on the assumption that he made the tea using your mother's teabags and milk, has committed burglary.  The theft element is satisfied, there may also be a further offence of abstracting electricity if they really want to throw the book at him.  If, for arguments sake, the brew is tea in a styrofoam cup that the trespasser has brought with him, no criminal offence has occurred.  He is still likely to be arrested and charged with attempted burglary; it will be down to his lawyer to argue that the offence wasn't complete.  

lookstraightahead

wilfred30 said:

lookstraightahead said:

canaldumidi said:

It's a breach of tenancy law, but that is not the same as criminal law. The remedy would be an application to a court for compensation (if there was a financial loss) and/or a court order preventing a repeat (and then any repeat would be contempt of court, which IS criminal),

There's no burgalry, theft, assault, breaking and entering, criminaldamage, or other crimal law broken.

Trespass is not a criminal matter.

Hence, while no one here is arguing that it is right, that is wy the police will not be interested (and rightly so).

Yes I stand corrected. 

It just doesn't make sense that anyone can walk into anyone else's house and so long as they don't actually break or damage or attack anyone, it's ok.

Also feeling threatened is very subjective.  If someone had just had a nosey through my house and left again, and I was aware of if, I would feel threatened.

I would think the police ignoring it would be a bit risky. 

But ...... whilst it is the OP's 'home' during their tenancy, it is not their house as it doesn't belong to them.  Maybe that's the difference.

I think this is the crux of my issue. While the tenant is paying, it is their home. I would be mortified if an agent came round and rearranged my furniture without my permission.

From what everyone is saying, I stand corrected that it seems there's little the op can do realistically, but I'm still not sure if I was a police officer that i would stand back if I thought it was trespass rather than a criminal offence.

very interesting thread.

lookstraightahead

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

lookstraightahead said:

peter3hg said:

lookstraightahead said:

Murphybear said:

lookstraightahead said:

Thrugelmir said:

roaduser3189 said:

I have contacted the police and they weren't particularly helpful. 

What were you expecting them to do? 

The same as if any house had been broken into 

If someone entered using a key they have not broken in.  If they had smashed the door in the police may have been a bit more interested. 

So if I leave my car door unlocked it's ok for someone to sit in it, go through the contents of the boot and the glove compartment?

Or if I leave my back door open and someone comes in in the middle of the night while I'm asleep, uses the loo, rearranges the furniture, it's not an offence?

the op hasn't "moved out" until 8 December.

I'm honestly intrigued. It appears that if you rent, it's ok for people to come into your house without your permission.

is it ok for anyone with access to a key to my home to come in at any time, or their mates?

There is a big difference between it not being ok and it being illegal.

What offence is it that you think has been committed?
Trespass is a civil matter so the police won't generally get involved in that.
It isn't burglary as that is trespass with the intent or result of stealing something, assaulting somebody or causing criminal damage.
It also isn't criminal damage as they have entered with a key.

I don't think anybody is saying that it is right that somebody entered their house, just that it isn't a police matter.

Ok (and I'm genuinely really surprised it isn't illegal). What if It was an elderly person, let's say my mum who is in her eighties. She gets up in the middle of the night to find someone in her kitchen, sitting at the kitchen table with a brew. Then they leave. Should she call the police?

A family friend had a party once and days later someone came into the house, rifled through the drawers etc, but they couldn't find anything missing. The police were definitely involved then as I remember it. 

It's not like the op has moved out officially.

Trespass to land is a civil tort, as noted by others.  The police, generally speaking, have no powers in relation to it.  There are circumstances in which the police can act, but these are specific and irrelevant to the matter under discussion.  

Your car example is likely to count as vehicle interference under Section 9 of the Criminal Attempts Act 1981, but that offence only applies to vehicles, or things carried in or on.  

The man at the kitchen table with the cup of tea, on the assumption that he made the tea using your mother's teabags and milk, has committed burglary.  The theft element is satisfied, there may also be a further offence of abstracting electricity if they really want to throw the book at him.  If, for arguments sake, the brew is tea in a styrofoam cup that the trespasser has brought with him, no criminal offence has occurred.  He is still likely to be arrested and charged with attempted burglary; it will be down to his lawyer to argue that the offence wasn't complete.  

Thank you for that explanation.

user1977

lookstraightahead said:

wilfred30 said:

lookstraightahead said:

canaldumidi said:

It's a breach of tenancy law, but that is not the same as criminal law. The remedy would be an application to a court for compensation (if there was a financial loss) and/or a court order preventing a repeat (and then any repeat would be contempt of court, which IS criminal),

There's no burgalry, theft, assault, breaking and entering, criminaldamage, or other crimal law broken.

Trespass is not a criminal matter.

Hence, while no one here is arguing that it is right, that is wy the police will not be interested (and rightly so).

Yes I stand corrected. 

It just doesn't make sense that anyone can walk into anyone else's house and so long as they don't actually break or damage or attack anyone, it's ok.

Also feeling threatened is very subjective.  If someone had just had a nosey through my house and left again, and I was aware of if, I would feel threatened.

I would think the police ignoring it would be a bit risky. 

But ...... whilst it is the OP's 'home' during their tenancy, it is not their house as it doesn't belong to them.  Maybe that's the difference.

From what everyone is saying, I stand corrected that it seems there's little the op can do realistically, but I'm still not sure if I was a police officer that i would stand back if I thought it was trespass rather than a criminal offence.

Obviously if the culprit appears to be a random scrote up to no good, the police are likely to remove them from the premises and ask some pointed questions about WTH they were doing (and there might be sufficient evidence that they were in fact in the course of, or attempting to, commit some criminal offence).

The point is that a landlord has much more plausible deniability about being on premises they own - though of course it's still possible for them to be guilty of theft etc if that's what they were really up to.

saajan_12

lookstraightahead said:

canaldumidi said:

It's a breach of tenancy law, but that is not the same as criminal law. The remedy would be an application to a court for compensation (if there was a financial loss) and/or a court order preventing a repeat (and then any repeat would be contempt of court, which IS criminal),

There's no burgalry, theft, assault, breaking and entering, criminaldamage, or other crimal law broken.

Trespass is not a criminal matter.

Hence, while no one here is arguing that it is right, that is wy the police will not be interested (and rightly so).

Yes I stand corrected. 

It just doesn't make sense that anyone can walk into anyone else's house and so long as they don't actually break or damage or attack anyone, it's ok.

Also feeling threatened is very subjective.  If someone had just had a nosey through my house and left again, and I was aware of if, I would feel threatened.

I would think the police ignoring it would be a bit risky. 

Well extend the definition of property.. if you didn't have walls around it, but your garden is fully yours. Should someone accidentally stepping on your lawn face criminal proceedings? If the don't leave when asked, or take stuff, or break stuff or keep doing it (harrassment) etc, then sure, there are more penal ways of dealing. But once they've stepped on, stepped off and left, then do the police still need to get involved? 

roaduser3189

Thank you for all your responses. 

I have rang estate agents and they have confirmed they havent been in or released to key to anyone. 

For those asking about why I rang the police for advice is because we have previously reported the LL to the them for harassment. As well as in the past explicitly saying to the LL that we require notice and our permission to enter the property.