Council renting - deliberate overcrowding?

madman1981

Currently in a 3 bed council property, my self, my 16 year old daughter & my 14 your old daughter. My 14 year old daughter is entitled to her room on medical grounds + there is some adaptions to the property on recommendations from the housing OT. 

I currently have a introductory tenancy which isn't due to be reviewed until end of may next year. 

Now one of my other daughters 14 (twin sister to the 14 year old living with me) who choose to stay with my ex partner when we split wants to move in with me as her relationship with her mom is now at breaking point & it's effecting her own mental health. 

Obviously I'm not going to say no to my daughter and more than happy to give up my bedroom and have sofa bed in living room.

 I've tried calling the council up and double checking it's not going to cause any major issues & they saying they can't answer that until they do a review next may but I could be making the property over crowded & sleeping arrangements would have to be reviewed in May.

Has anyone else had a similar situation? Did the council try and evict you after letting one of your own children move in? I just want to try and prepare myself for all eventualities. 

Any advice greatly appreciate

Gavin83

Any reason your 14 year old moving in can't share with the 16 year old?

4 people in a 3 bed property doesn't seem particularly overcrowded to me but it'll largely depend on what criteria the council set and what other rooms exist in the house. How many bathrooms do you have for example?

Snookie12cat

Agree with the above. 4 people in a 3 bed sounds very normal. Your daughter can share with you or her sister, I don't think the council should find this unreasonable. What if you had another baby or something?? They wouldn't evict you then, so it seems no different here.

deannagone

I can't see how the council would have grounds to evict you for moving a daughter into the property.  They may insist two of your daughters can share a room. You have established that one of the daughters needs a room to themself, but the other two?

Obviously its up to you if you move so you sleep in the lounge.  I actually moved into the smaller bedroom for a while (awful lol I hated it) to give my older son the space he needed for things he was doing (both my sons are autistic and need their own rooms too).  

But I can't see the council evicting you, even on a probationary tenancy on these grounds.  Look at your local council's housing site and see what they say with reference to when older teens require a room of their own (with reference to your older daughter).  It is possible you could get a different property due to change of needs, but I doubt it would happen quickly.  What would have once got you to the top of the 'need a new property' list with a relatively quick move, doesn't work now. 

And I am afraid, you could find your daughter will require a period of adjustment.  Have you spoke to your ex and his partner?  With my sons, much as I love them, I don't rely solely on what they tell me happened when there's been some disaster.  They don't lie, but obviously its very much from their perspective and influenced by the strength of feelings at the time. There's nothing like an outraged teen surrounded by 'unrealistic' people who don't understand them.  As said, I love my sons, but I also know they have some empathy and experience limitations that the coming years will sort out.  Of course, the one thing you can't do is say this.  This is assuming there isn't something more serious going on, of course.  I am sorry for the emotional trauma this sort of thing tends to cause for all parties.

Wishing you all the best.

Norman_Castle

madman1981 said:

Obviously I'm not going to say no to my daughter and more than happy to give up my bedroom and have sofa bed in living room.

 I've tried calling the council up and double checking it's not going to cause any major issues & they saying they can't answer that until they do a review next may but I could be making the property over crowded & sleeping arrangements would have to be reviewed in May.

Has anyone else had a similar situation? Did the council try and evict you after letting one of your own children move in? I just want to try and prepare myself for all eventualities. 

Overcrowding is based on total space, not just the number of rooms. Does your tenancy agreement state the total allowed occupancy? Attempts to evict you if it was considered overcrowded could be resolved by the daughter moving out, once the problem is resolved a court and presumably the council would be happy for you to stay.

Its unfortunate the council landlord cannot give a simple answer to a simple question about your current dilemma, is it possible they misinterpreted the question as being a request to be rehoused in a larger property?

https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/repairs/check_if_your_home_is_overcrowded_by_law

madman1981

Gavin83 said:

Any reason your 14 year old moving in can't share with the 16 year old?

4 people in a 3 bed property doesn't seem particularly overcrowded to me but it'll largely depend on what criteria the council set and what other rooms exist in the house. How many bathrooms do you have for example?

The council's own criteria is 16+ entitled to their own bedroom 

While in theory I could make them share even though they both don't totally get on, it's still not what the the entitlement is in the eyes of the law and there is a part in the tenancy agreement about not making the property overcrowded in the eyes of the law with moving people in. 

Only one bathroom

Section62

Snookie12cat said:

Agree with the above. 4 people in a 3 bed sounds very normal. Your daughter can share with you or her sister, I don't think the council should find this unreasonable. What if you had another baby or something?? They wouldn't evict you then, so it seems no different here.

I could be wrong, and it will help if the OP can clarify, but their username suggests they are male and therefore that option should/would be discounted.

Section62

madman1981 said:

Gavin83 said:

Any reason your 14 year old moving in can't share with the 16 year old?

4 people in a 3 bed property doesn't seem particularly overcrowded to me but it'll largely depend on what criteria the council set and what other rooms exist in the house. How many bathrooms do you have for example?

The council's own criteria is 16+ entitled to their own bedroom 

While in theory I could make them share even though they both don't totally get on, it's still not what the the entitlement is in the eyes of the law and there is a part in the tenancy agreement about not making the property overcrowded in the eyes of the law with moving people in. 

Only one bathroom

Only the council will be able to tell you for sure, but I suspect that is included in the tenancy agreement to stop people (temporarily) moving relatives in to act as leverage to get rehoused in a larger property.  Otherwise people might exploit the legalities around overcrowding to force the council's hand.

Unfortunately a rule like that can then impact on people like yourself with a genuine need/requirement - so the question is whether the council proactively enforce it, or would only point to that rule if you later asked them to provide you with a larger home.

I think only the Council can tell you, but as others have said, in the circumstances I would expect that they would allow you to remedy the breach by one person moving out again, rather than 'evicting' you all.

madman1981

deannagone said:

I can't see how the council would have grounds to evict you for moving a daughter into the property.  They may insist two of your daughters can share a room. You have established that one of the daughters needs a room to yourself, but the other two?

Obviously its up to you if you move so you sleep in the lounge.  I actually moved into the smaller bedroom for a while (awful lol I hated it) to give my older son the space he needed for things he was doing (both my sons are autistic and need their own rooms too).  

But I can't see the council evicting you, even on a probationary tenancy on these grounds.  Look at your local council's housing site and see what they say with reference to when older teens require a room of their own (with reference to your older daughter).  It is possible you could get a different property due to change of needs, but I doubt it would happen quickly.  What would have once got you to the top of the 'need a new property' list with a relatively quick move, doesn't work now. 

And I am afraid, you could find your daughter will require a period of adjustment.  Have you spoke to your ex and his partner?  With my sons, much as I love them, I don't rely solely on what they tell me happened when there's been some disaster.  They don't lie, but obviously its very much from their perspective and influenced by the strength of feelings at the time. There's nothing like an outraged teen surrounded by 'unrealistic' people who don't understand them.  As said, I love my sons, but I also know they have some empathy and experience limitations that the coming years will sort out.  Of course, the one thing you can't do is say this.  This is assuming there isn't something more serious going on, of course.  I am sorry for the emotional trauma this sort of thing tends to cause for all parties.

Wishing you all the best.

If the council said the two girls should share they then breaking their own policies as 16+ are entitled to their own room. Which if they did share would free up the small room for me but as you can imagine two teenage girls sharing who don't see eye to eye all the time and the 14 year old is suspected Autistic (her twin already been diagnosed hence own room with other health issues) so  is a disaster waiting to happen if they share. So to try and have a peaceful life I would prefer the living room lol.

Highly doubt council would find me a bigger property with the addition of the adaptions that are required, my oldest would probably of moved out move that happens lol

I totally take your point on board about the 14 year old and maybe that is a small part in this situation too but my ex partner does have an on/off issue with alcohol n her own mental health issues and now I'm not there it's got to much for my daughter who regrets her decision to move out with me when I left.  

Gavin83

I’m really not sure why a 16+ year old child needs a room of their own or why a girl can’t share a room with their dad but rules are rules.

Ultimately OP there’s probably no one who could truly answer this other than the council. I’d push them further on a more solid answer.

madman1981

Section62 said:

Snookie12cat said:

Agree with the above. 4 people in a 3 bed sounds very normal. Your daughter can share with you or her sister, I don't think the council should find this unreasonable. What if you had another baby or something?? They wouldn't evict you then, so it seems no different here.

I could be wrong, and it will help if the OP can clarify, but their username suggests they are male and therefore that option should/would be discounted.

Yes I am male and obviously wouldn't dream of sharing a bedroom with one of the girls.