Claim form received from County Court

snowlucas

Hi,

Firstly thanks for everyone who has contributed to this board. After receiving the below I was obviously extremely annoyed/concerned but having all these resources has at least made me aware of what to expect and what to do.

I have received a Claim Form Issue date 24th November. Claimant is UK Parking control limited and legal rep is DCB Legal.

This is for a PCN from 2016 for allegedly staying past the free 4 hours the car park allowed. At the time from my understanding there was very little chance of this ever going anywhere so I have ignored everything sent since this date. A couple of notices in the first year and then nothing till this year when they started again. I was hoping I would be heading past the limit of 6 years so again ignored it. It was only once I received the Claim Form I had a look on here - I didn't clock that the letter before the claim form was different from the other 20 or so letters they had sent and it seems I should have acted at that point but oh well.

So I have now put in a SAR to UK Parking Control which I have received back with photos from the car at one time and one just over 4 hours and 10 mins later. They have also included some completely impossible to see photos of the signs. You cannot read the detail of the sign apart from the Logo of UKPC. It's a terrible photo. They have sent me just one letter and one reminder (in the SAR) when obviously there were way more than this - is this something I need to chase? I haven't kept any paperwork. I just have the Claim Form and now their SAR response.

I believe I should next complete the online response saying I am challenging the whole amount as per the newbies thread. The AOS. Needs to be done in the next few days. Is there any reason to delay this?

After that I need to write my defence statement and email that.

Some other detail. The original notice was for £100. At some point they added the £60 charge - I think I can challenge this as per the advice here. They have added extra fees onto the claim form including court fee and interest. All in all my extra 10 or so minutes is worth over £300 according to them. 

Any advice would be much appreciated. 

Specific questions. Is it worth claiming that overstaying 10 mins is reasonable and this fine is excessive. Can I argue the photos of the signs are impossible to read in the photo so how can they be used as evidence of what they said at the time? I believe I can challenge the £60 as even if we assumed the sign did say £100 it would not have said anything specific about the £60. Are they allowed to add these extra fees like interest and the court fee?

Thanks

Redx

County courts don't send out claim forms !! It will be from the CCBC in Northampton , a government office

The AOS should be delayed until 5 or more days after the issue date from the claim form , and no later than 19 days , so anytime between the two

What is the issue date from the claim form ? 24th November ? If yes , do the AOS tomorrow or later this week

The relevant BPA CoP in force at the time of the incident , clause 13 , details the relevant Grace periods , one before and one after , so yes , they are extremely relevant if it was an alleged overstay of 10 minutes. It should have been appealed at the time and taken to Popla , on the basis of POFA plus grace periods etc

They can add legal fees and court fees , the spurious charges and interest can and will be disputed , they already are in the defence template post by coupon mad

D_P_Dance

They can add interest but they may not be able to add collection charges, read this

Excel v Wilkinson

At the Bradford County Court, District Judge Claire Jackson (now HHJ Jackson, a Specialist Civil Circuit Judge) decided to hear a 'test case' a few months ago, where £60 had been added to a parking charge despite Judges up and down the country repeatedly disallowing that sum and warning parking firms not to waste court time with such spurious claims.   That case was Excel v Wilkinson: G4QZ465V, heard in July 2020 and leave to appeal was refused and that route was not pursued.  The Judge concluded that such claims are proceedings with 'an improper collateral purpose'.   This Judge - and others who have since copied her words and struck dozens of cases out in late 2020 and into 2021 - went into significant detail and concluded that parking operators (such as this Claimant) are seeking to circumvent CPR 27.14 as well as breaching the Consumer Rights Act 2015.   DJ Hickinbottom has recently struck more cases out in that court area, stating: ''I find that striking out this claim is the only appropriate manner in which the disapproval of the court can be shown''.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/16qovzulab1szem/G4QZ465V%20Excel%20v%20Wilkinson.pdf?dl=0

However, VCS appealed this so it may not apply in all cases, read this

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ntksx9g7177ahyg/VCS v Percy v1 Amendments (2).pdf?dl=0Also read this

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6279348/witness-statements-2-transcripts-re-parking-firms-false-costs-recorder-cohen-qc-judgment-2021/p1

snowlucas

The COP from that period states minimum 10 mins. Photos show 12 mins. Is this still worth bringing up? How likely would a judge be to just say I should have appealed that eairlier? From this forum I guess this is an unanswerable question as Judge dependant.

In regards to the other terms. I beleive at the time POFA 2012 was the correct place to look for terms? In there I found:

"The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given."

From the SAR there appears to be more than 32 days between the date of the PCN and the Notice to Keeper. Does the wording above mean 28 days plus 1 or 28 days plus 28 days plus 1? I'm confused.

Redx

It's a Minimum 10 minutes Grace , surely ?

Plus you would expect a pre payment Grace period to park up , read the signs , queue at the machine , and pay , parking starts the instant you pay at the machine , period 1

The second grace period is a minimum of 10 minutes to leave , subject to slow traffic etc , period 2 , so typically say 15 minutes in total , 5 before , 10 after , surely , hence a valid legal argument

The correct BPA CoP for 2016 is quite an old one so do not check version 8 dated January 2020 , check the old one , possibly version 5 or 6 ?

They had 14 days to get the PCN to the keeper if no windscreen ticket was issued , the keeper had 28 days to appeal , which should have been done at the time

If a windscreen PCN NTD was issued to the driver on the day , the NTK PCN to the keeper should arrive between day 29 and day 56 for POFA compliance , the part you read

If they failed to comply with POFA ( it's not mandatory ) , UKPC LTD had 6 months to obtain keeper details from the DVLA

KeithP

snowlucas said:

I have received a Claim Form Issue date 24th November. Claimant is UK Parking control limited and legal rep is DCB Legal.

I believe I should next complete the online response saying I am challenging the whole amount as per the newbies thread. The AOS. Needs to be done in the next few days. Is there any reason to delay this?

With a Claim Issue Date of 24th November, you have until Monday 13th December to file an Acknowledgment of Service but there is nothing to be gained by delaying it. 

To file an AoS, follow the guidance in the Dropbox file linked from the second post in the NEWBIES thread.

Having filed an AoS in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Wednesday 29th December 2021 to file your Defence.

That's over four weeks away. Plenty of time to produce a Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.

To create a Defence, and then file a Defence by email, look again at the second post on the NEWBIES thread - immediately following where you found the Acknowledgment of Service instructions.

Don't miss the deadline for filing an Acknowledgment of Service, nor that for filing a Defence.

Do not try and file a Defence via the MoneyClaimOnline website. Once an Acknowledgment of Service has been filed, the MCOL website should be treated as 'read only'.

snowlucas

Redx said:

It's a Minimum 10 minutes Grace , surely ?

Plus you would expect a pre payment Grace period to park up , read the signs , queue at the machine , and pay , parking starts the instant you pay at the machine , period 1

The second grace period is a minimum of 10 minutes to leave , subject to slow traffic etc , period 2 , so typically say 15 minutes in total , 5 before , 10 after , surely , hence a valid legal argument

The correct BPA CoP for 2016 is quite an old one so do not check version 8 dated January 2020 , check the old one , possibly version 5 or 6 ?

They had 14 days to get the PCN to the keeper if no windscreen ticket was issued , the keeper had 28 days to appeal , which should have been done at the time

If a windscreen PCN NTD was issued to the driver on the day , the NTK PCN to the keeper should arrive between day 29 and day 56 for POFA compliance , the part you read

If they failed to comply with POFA ( it's not mandatory ) , UKPC LTD had 6 months to obtain keeper details from the DVLA

It wasn't a pay and display and it wasnt camera controlled. It was done by photos by the person who issued the ticket. I'm fairly certain I parked and then went to try and understand the signs, I do remember being very confused that there wasn't a pay and display machine and looked for one before realising it was free. I then left the car park. Photo one could quiet easily been during the first grace period when I was trying to determine the rules/look for the pay and display. I've never been to this car park since and this was my first time there. I think its reasonable to assume most private car parks have a pay and display and to attempt to find one.

In terms of the photo they have provided of the signs being unreadable (as in the actual photo file they sent is terrible quality) are they allowed to produce something else I havent seen? No one could claim any information could be confirmed from that photo. I still don't know to this day what the terms were they claim I agreed to.

Redx

A SAR reply should reveal all documents and pictures etc , if it's your data , so no they should not be able to produce a rabbit out of a hat later on

Signage and landowner authority etc comes at the WS stage in several months time , when they issue their evidence bundle

As it's a free car park , then grace periods still apply but not by PDT machine , so not via payment , but still what I mentioned apart from payment. Yes it's reasonable to look for signage and payment methods including a pdf machine

If it's a person with a camera , then it's MNPR , if they issued a NTD PCN to the vehicle then it's the day 29 to day 56 scenario for POFA , but POFA doesn't assist a keeper who was also the driver

If it's cameras at the entrance/exit , then it's anpr cameras , so not a person , anpr cameras are the usual enforcement these days , so in the last decade

You can use their poor quality pictures to your advantage , as poor evidence

The driver agreed to Abide by the 4 hours free parking time , to park within a bay , etc

The relevant CoP at the time allowed Grace periods before and after parking , typically no more than say 15 minutes in total

D_P_Dance

ANPR is not fit for purpose, read this

https://metro.co.uk/2021/10/18/surrey-writing-on-womans-jumper-landed-couple-with-fine-when-she-walked-in-bus-lane-15439916/

Coupon-mad

You can find put how long the free period was by looking on Google Streetview for that year.

Most Judges would agree with your position, that you are entitled to a consideration period and the time taken in traffic to drive in and then read the signs.

That's when the parking contract started.  Well worth defending and easy enough to do. How many other UKPC claim/defence threads have you read yet? Read at least ten.

snowlucas

I've submitted my AOS today.

I now need to work on my defence from the template.

I checked google street view and today I'm not sure you could read the signs but regardless they don't go back this far.

How can they claim I broke the terms as set out in the signs and then submit an image to me where I cannot read the terms at all? I feel like I keep circling back to this sign issue. In these cases surely they have to prove the terms I broke on the day they issued the PCN? Has this issue come up before or is it assumed the signs did exist and stated what they claim (this even sounds bizarre when I write it).