Microwave oven apparently mis-described as new - seller refusing to refund installation costs

in Consumer Rights
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h2oh2oh2oh2o Forumite
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Hi all, will try keep this as short as poss.

Purchased 2 matching ovens (high spec - F&P) over the phone, paid by card.
Had electrician fit them day after delivery. Oven was fine but when microwave was connected to power it was tripping the electrics. We then realised it wasn't wrapped in plastic like the oven was so were a bit suspect about its condition.

Called the seller, they couldn't replace as it was the last one in stock so only option was to return both ovens. Not wanting to be without any ovens, I asked if it worth trying the manufacturer to see if they could replace quickly - seller agreed this would be a good first port of call. I called F&P and they said they needed to send an engineer who could come next day - given how soon this was I agreed.

Engineer came - unscrewed the outer casing of the oven to have a look and to his surprise the fan was loose (not attached to anything), the motor for the fan was missing and all cabling for the fan was missing. There was also scratching to the inner casing, indicative of tampering/use. Engineer said he never saw anything like that and there was no way the oven could be brand new. He then opened the inner casing to the cavity and found the motor loose and the cabling. He was able eventually able to connect it all up and got the microwave functioning properly without tripping electrics. F&P provided me a report stating the condition of the oven and remedy that was required. I also took pictures of the inside showing the loose fan.

I am unhappy with the microwave I received as all evidence suggests it is not new as described. I requested a 15% discount on the price paid (approx £1,350) for me to keep it. Alternatively, I suggested both ovens be replaced for similar models (at the sellers expense), or a full refund for both ovens plus the installation cost I incurred (given that there is no way I could have known the microwave was not brand new and faulty without incurring this. I have been chasing the seller for 2 weeks and they have been very unresponsive. They initially offered me a goodwill gesture of £50 for the microwave which I declined. Finally called me back today and categorically deny that the microwave could possibly be anything other than brand new as it was never returned to them and they don't sell graded / ex display / second hand goods (Though they upped the goodwill gesture to £100). They also suggested that because the ovens have been installed, I'd essentially "accepted them". I said I had not accepted them as I have not used them (as I've ben waiting for a resolution on my complaint) and I had reported the issue to them straight away and continuously followed up with my.

My understanding of the CRA is I am entitled to any reasonable costs incurred and I believe in this case the installation is a reasonable cost in this case and puts me back to the position I started in if they refund this together with the ovens. Is this correct?

We are in dispute about whether the microwave is brand new or not - I have a witness statement from my electrician, F&P report and photographs - all indicative that it was not brand new. I've raised a chargeback claim through my card company for the ovens but I would obviously need to recover electrician costs another way....


All help much appreciated!
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Replies

  • h2oh2o said:
    Hi all, will try keep this as short as poss.

    Purchased 2 matching ovens (high spec - F&P) over the phone, paid by card.
    Had electrician fit them day after delivery. Oven was fine but when microwave was connected to power it was tripping the electrics. We then realised it wasn't wrapped in plastic like the oven was so were a bit suspect about its condition.

    Called the seller, they couldn't replace as it was the last one in stock so only option was to return both ovens. Not wanting to be without any ovens, I asked if it worth trying the manufacturer to see if they could replace quickly - seller agreed this would be a good first port of call. I called F&P and they said they needed to send an engineer who could come next day - given how soon this was I agreed.

    Engineer came - unscrewed the outer casing of the oven to have a look and to his surprise the fan was loose (not attached to anything), the motor for the fan was missing and all cabling for the fan was missing. There was also scratching to the inner casing, indicative of tampering/use. Engineer said he never saw anything like that and there was no way the oven could be brand new. He then opened the inner casing to the cavity and found the motor loose and the cabling. He was able eventually able to connect it all up and got the microwave functioning properly without tripping electrics. F&P provided me a report stating the condition of the oven and remedy that was required. I also took pictures of the inside showing the loose fan.

    I am unhappy with the microwave I received as all evidence suggests it is not new as described. I requested a 15% discount on the price paid (approx £1,350) for me to keep it. Alternatively, I suggested both ovens be replaced for similar models (at the sellers expense), or a full refund for both ovens plus the installation cost I incurred (given that there is no way I could have known the microwave was not brand new and faulty without incurring this. I have been chasing the seller for 2 weeks and they have been very unresponsive. They initially offered me a goodwill gesture of £50 for the microwave which I declined. Finally called me back today and categorically deny that the microwave could possibly be anything other than brand new as it was never returned to them and they don't sell graded / ex display / second hand goods (Though they upped the goodwill gesture to £100). They also suggested that because the ovens have been installed, I'd essentially "accepted them". I said I had not accepted them as I have not used them (as I've ben waiting for a resolution on my complaint) and I had reported the issue to them straight away and continuously followed up with my.

    My understanding of the CRA is I am entitled to any reasonable costs incurred and I believe in this case the installation is a reasonable cost in this case and puts me back to the position I started in if they refund this together with the ovens. Is this correct?

    We are in dispute about whether the microwave is brand new or not - I have a witness statement from my electrician, F&P report and photographs - all indicative that it was not brand new. I've raised a chargeback claim through my card company for the ovens but I would obviously need to recover electrician costs another way....


    All help much appreciated!
    You're entitled to your money back, which is what they/'re offering.  It's not their fault that you paid to have a faulty oven fitted after all.

    Why did a competent electrician not test them properly before installation?
  • edited 25 November at 1:58AM
    h2oh2oh2oh2o Forumite
    17 Posts
    Ninth Anniversary 10 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 25 November at 1:58AM
    h2oh2o said:
    Hi all, will try keep this as short as poss.

    Purchased 2 matching ovens (high spec - F&P) over the phone, paid by card.
    Had electrician fit them day after delivery. Oven was fine but when microwave was connected to power it was tripping the electrics. We then realised it wasn't wrapped in plastic like the oven was so were a bit suspect about its condition.

    Called the seller, they couldn't replace as it was the last one in stock so only option was to return both ovens. Not wanting to be without any ovens, I asked if it worth trying the manufacturer to see if they could replace quickly - seller agreed this would be a good first port of call. I called F&P and they said they needed to send an engineer who could come next day - given how soon this was I agreed.

    Engineer came - unscrewed the outer casing of the oven to have a look and to his surprise the fan was loose (not attached to anything), the motor for the fan was missing and all cabling for the fan was missing. There was also scratching to the inner casing, indicative of tampering/use. Engineer said he never saw anything like that and there was no way the oven could be brand new. He then opened the inner casing to the cavity and found the motor loose and the cabling. He was able eventually able to connect it all up and got the microwave functioning properly without tripping electrics. F&P provided me a report stating the condition of the oven and remedy that was required. I also took pictures of the inside showing the loose fan.

    I am unhappy with the microwave I received as all evidence suggests it is not new as described. I requested a 15% discount on the price paid (approx £1,350) for me to keep it. Alternatively, I suggested both ovens be replaced for similar models (at the sellers expense), or a full refund for both ovens plus the installation cost I incurred (given that there is no way I could have known the microwave was not brand new and faulty without incurring this. I have been chasing the seller for 2 weeks and they have been very unresponsive. They initially offered me a goodwill gesture of £50 for the microwave which I declined. Finally called me back today and categorically deny that the microwave could possibly be anything other than brand new as it was never returned to them and they don't sell graded / ex display / second hand goods (Though they upped the goodwill gesture to £100). They also suggested that because the ovens have been installed, I'd essentially "accepted them". I said I had not accepted them as I have not used them (as I've ben waiting for a resolution on my complaint) and I had reported the issue to them straight away and continuously followed up with my.

    My understanding of the CRA is I am entitled to any reasonable costs incurred and I believe in this case the installation is a reasonable cost in this case and puts me back to the position I started in if they refund this together with the ovens. Is this correct?

    We are in dispute about whether the microwave is brand new or not - I have a witness statement from my electrician, F&P report and photographs - all indicative that it was not brand new. I've raised a chargeback claim through my card company for the ovens but I would obviously need to recover electrician costs another way....


    All help much appreciated!
    You're entitled to your money back, which is what they/'re offering.  It's not their fault that you paid to have a faulty oven fitted after all.

    Why did a competent electrician not test them properly before installation?
    Thanks for your response.

    Not sure what you mean by "test them properly" - he did test them. That was how the fault was discovered, and couldn't have been known without an electrician coming to do this.
    Secondly, my complaint isn't only about the fault, it is the fact it was not, apparently, a brand new item (Again which I couldn't have known before the engineer opened it up)
  • edited 25 November at 2:10AM
    LaHostessAvecLaMostessLaHostessAvecLaMostess Forumite
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    edited 25 November at 2:10AM
    h2oh2o said:
    h2oh2o said:
    Hi all, will try keep this as short as poss.

    Purchased 2 matching ovens (high spec - F&P) over the phone, paid by card.
    Had electrician fit them day after delivery. Oven was fine but when microwave was connected to power it was tripping the electrics. We then realised it wasn't wrapped in plastic like the oven was so were a bit suspect about its condition.

    Called the seller, they couldn't replace as it was the last one in stock so only option was to return both ovens. Not wanting to be without any ovens, I asked if it worth trying the manufacturer to see if they could replace quickly - seller agreed this would be a good first port of call. I called F&P and they said they needed to send an engineer who could come next day - given how soon this was I agreed.

    Engineer came - unscrewed the outer casing of the oven to have a look and to his surprise the fan was loose (not attached to anything), the motor for the fan was missing and all cabling for the fan was missing. There was also scratching to the inner casing, indicative of tampering/use. Engineer said he never saw anything like that and there was no way the oven could be brand new. He then opened the inner casing to the cavity and found the motor loose and the cabling. He was able eventually able to connect it all up and got the microwave functioning properly without tripping electrics. F&P provided me a report stating the condition of the oven and remedy that was required. I also took pictures of the inside showing the loose fan.

    I am unhappy with the microwave I received as all evidence suggests it is not new as described. I requested a 15% discount on the price paid (approx £1,350) for me to keep it. Alternatively, I suggested both ovens be replaced for similar models (at the sellers expense), or a full refund for both ovens plus the installation cost I incurred (given that there is no way I could have known the microwave was not brand new and faulty without incurring this. I have been chasing the seller for 2 weeks and they have been very unresponsive. They initially offered me a goodwill gesture of £50 for the microwave which I declined. Finally called me back today and categorically deny that the microwave could possibly be anything other than brand new as it was never returned to them and they don't sell graded / ex display / second hand goods (Though they upped the goodwill gesture to £100). They also suggested that because the ovens have been installed, I'd essentially "accepted them". I said I had not accepted them as I have not used them (as I've ben waiting for a resolution on my complaint) and I had reported the issue to them straight away and continuously followed up with my.

    My understanding of the CRA is I am entitled to any reasonable costs incurred and I believe in this case the installation is a reasonable cost in this case and puts me back to the position I started in if they refund this together with the ovens. Is this correct?

    We are in dispute about whether the microwave is brand new or not - I have a witness statement from my electrician, F&P report and photographs - all indicative that it was not brand new. I've raised a chargeback claim through my card company for the ovens but I would obviously need to recover electrician costs another way....


    All help much appreciated!
    You're entitled to your money back, which is what they/'re offering.  It's not their fault that you paid to have a faulty oven fitted after all.

    Why did a competent electrician not test them properly before installation?
    Thanks for your response.

    Not sure what you mean by "test them properly" - he did test them. That was how the fault was discovered, and couldn't have been known without an electrician coming to do this.
    Secondly, my complaint isn't only about the fault, it is the fact it was not, apparently, a brand new item (Again which I couldn't have known before the engineer opened it up)
    You're entitled to a replacement, repair or refund as per your consumer rights. What makes you think the law says you're entitled to consequential damages?

    You have a right to reject faulty goods.  You do not have a right (under law) to claim consequential damages.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20/enacted
  • edited 25 November at 8:41AM
    Jenni_DJenni_D Forumite
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    edited 25 November at 8:41AM
    I'm not sure that's entirely correct, but I can't remember which part of legislation makes a seller liable for consequential costs. (Might be in the CRA 2015 or the CCR 2013 - as this was an order by phone [distance] then the CCRs may also apply).
    Jenni x
  • edited 25 November at 8:45AM
    neilmclneilmcl Forumite
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    edited 25 November at 8:45AM
    h2oh2o said:
    h2oh2o said:
    Hi all, will try keep this as short as poss.

    Purchased 2 matching ovens (high spec - F&P) over the phone, paid by card.
    Had electrician fit them day after delivery. Oven was fine but when microwave was connected to power it was tripping the electrics. We then realised it wasn't wrapped in plastic like the oven was so were a bit suspect about its condition.

    Called the seller, they couldn't replace as it was the last one in stock so only option was to return both ovens. Not wanting to be without any ovens, I asked if it worth trying the manufacturer to see if they could replace quickly - seller agreed this would be a good first port of call. I called F&P and they said they needed to send an engineer who could come next day - given how soon this was I agreed.

    Engineer came - unscrewed the outer casing of the oven to have a look and to his surprise the fan was loose (not attached to anything), the motor for the fan was missing and all cabling for the fan was missing. There was also scratching to the inner casing, indicative of tampering/use. Engineer said he never saw anything like that and there was no way the oven could be brand new. He then opened the inner casing to the cavity and found the motor loose and the cabling. He was able eventually able to connect it all up and got the microwave functioning properly without tripping electrics. F&P provided me a report stating the condition of the oven and remedy that was required. I also took pictures of the inside showing the loose fan.

    I am unhappy with the microwave I received as all evidence suggests it is not new as described. I requested a 15% discount on the price paid (approx £1,350) for me to keep it. Alternatively, I suggested both ovens be replaced for similar models (at the sellers expense), or a full refund for both ovens plus the installation cost I incurred (given that there is no way I could have known the microwave was not brand new and faulty without incurring this. I have been chasing the seller for 2 weeks and they have been very unresponsive. They initially offered me a goodwill gesture of £50 for the microwave which I declined. Finally called me back today and categorically deny that the microwave could possibly be anything other than brand new as it was never returned to them and they don't sell graded / ex display / second hand goods (Though they upped the goodwill gesture to £100). They also suggested that because the ovens have been installed, I'd essentially "accepted them". I said I had not accepted them as I have not used them (as I've ben waiting for a resolution on my complaint) and I had reported the issue to them straight away and continuously followed up with my.

    My understanding of the CRA is I am entitled to any reasonable costs incurred and I believe in this case the installation is a reasonable cost in this case and puts me back to the position I started in if they refund this together with the ovens. Is this correct?

    We are in dispute about whether the microwave is brand new or not - I have a witness statement from my electrician, F&P report and photographs - all indicative that it was not brand new. I've raised a chargeback claim through my card company for the ovens but I would obviously need to recover electrician costs another way....


    All help much appreciated!
    You're entitled to your money back, which is what they/'re offering.  It's not their fault that you paid to have a faulty oven fitted after all.

    Why did a competent electrician not test them properly before installation?
    Thanks for your response.

    Not sure what you mean by "test them properly" - he did test them. That was how the fault was discovered, and couldn't have been known without an electrician coming to do this.
    Secondly, my complaint isn't only about the fault, it is the fact it was not, apparently, a brand new item (Again which I couldn't have known before the engineer opened it up)
    You're entitled to a replacement, repair or refund as per your consumer rights. What makes you think the law says you're entitled to consequential damages?

    You have a right to reject faulty goods.  You do not have a right (under law) to claim consequential damages.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20/enacted
    I'm sorry, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The OP is entitled to all reasonable costs as a result of the breach of contract.
  • edited 25 November at 9:48AM
    the_lunatic_is_in_my_headthe_lunatic_is_in_my_head Forumite
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    edited 25 November at 9:48AM
    OP when they mention you've "accepted" the goods this isn't a thing and you are entitled to a remedy.

    As you haven't exercised your short term right to reject the trader must repair or replace the goods and cover costs as per the below:

    www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/23/enacted

    (2)If the consumer requires the trader to repair or replace the goods, the trader must—
    (a)do so within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to the consumer, and
    (b)bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials or postage).

    Where it is not possible to to repair or replace the goods or the trader refuses to do so you can exercise your final right to reject (for a full refund if done within 6 months). Although the section on the final right to reject doesn't mention costs as neil says you will suffer a loss as a direct result of the goods not conforming to the contract and can seek to recover these. 

    AFAIK you can reject both the oven and microwave together if the trader is refusing to repair or replace but are you able to source the same microwave from another place? This would reduce your losses and generally make life easier, the company may be less resistant to help as well as the cost to them of only sorting out the return and refund of the microwave is likely to be a lot less than for both. 
  • h2oh2oh2oh2o Forumite
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    Ninth Anniversary 10 Posts Combo Breaker
    Thanks so much for all of the helpful responses.

    Unfortunately, the appliances are in extremely short supply (hence the situation I am in and the seller's hard negotiating stance).  

    On installation, it was apparent that it was faulty (as was tripping electrics). They couldn't replace so I tried to get a replacement through the manufacturer. They had to send an engineer to investigate and through that it became apparent that it wasn't new (as described). So the fault has been fixed but my gripe is it wasn't new as described based on all of the evidence I have seen. The seller disputes this. 

    My preference would be to settle with the seller as this is easiest and means I can start using ovens straight away (i haven't used them for over 2 weeks now out of fear I may need to return!). I've initiated the chargeback process in the hope that incentivises them to play ball. The question is, are there any other levers I can pull? Am I being unreasonable asking for either:
    - 15% discount on the microwave (this is based on my research of typical discount given for top graded / ex-display items
    - replace both ovens with a similar model (which they have in stock) and cover the cost in doing so
    - give me a full refund including reasonable costs I have bourn to put me back in the position I started in

    Many thanks in advance! 
  • edited 25 November at 10:49AM
    the_lunatic_is_in_my_headthe_lunatic_is_in_my_head Forumite
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    edited 25 November at 10:49AM
    There is the possibility of a price reduction which I've highlighted at the bottom of the post but it's hinging on a technicality as to whether the unit not being brand spanking new but having been repaired to full working condition allows you to argue to the goods didn't conform to the contract. The retailer may ague the unit hasn't be used and the internal defects present were down to manufacturing.

    I assume there wasn't any other signs of use like food inside or there wasn't any marks, scratches to the outside of unit? 

    Assuming the £1350 is the price of just the microwave 15% would be just over £200 and they've offered £100, personally I'd be inclined to take this as a "goodwill gesture" as this will mean you haven't exercised any rights and can still reject the goods if a fault occurs in the future, where as I'm not sure if you'd have this right if you now exercised your right to a price reduction.

    You can of course haggle for more and hope to meet in the middle at £150 goodwill.


    www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/24/enacted

    (1)The right to a price reduction is the right—

    (a)to require the trader to reduce by an appropriate amount the price the consumer is required to pay under the contract, or anything else the consumer is required to transfer under the contract, and

    (5)A consumer who has the right to a price reduction and the final right to reject may only exercise one (not both), and may only do so in one of these situations—

    (a)after one repair or one replacement, the goods do not conform to the contract;

    (b)because of section 23(3) the consumer can require neither repair nor replacement of the goods; or

    (c)the consumer has required the trader to repair or replace the goods, but the trader is in breach of the requirement of section 23(2)(a) to do so within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to the consumer.

  • h2oh2oh2oh2o Forumite
    17 Posts
    Ninth Anniversary 10 Posts Combo Breaker
    Thanks this is super helpful.

    The appliances come with a 5 year parts and labour warranty from the manufacturer so not sure there is much of a difference to me between price reduction & goodwill gesture?

    Microwave didn't look like it had been used for food/cooking but did look like it had been opened, tampered with and returned. Signs were:
    - wasn't packaged as thoroughly oven. Oven was plastic wrapped inside the box (bit like the plastic you peel off a new phone!) where as microwave was just there in the box.
    - when opened up by the engineer - fan was completely loose and there was scratching on the inner casing (again, cosmetically this doesn't bother me but again it was indicative of tampering. 

    I agree it is somewhat speculative and could have been a very unfortunate manufacturers defect. I can only go by what the experienced engineer told me having serviced 100s of these microwaves. I think this would work in my favour in the case of a dispute, but agree, the best outcome would be to agree a goodwill gesture with the seller.
  • edited 25 November at 12:12PM
    the_lunatic_is_in_my_headthe_lunatic_is_in_my_head Forumite
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    edited 25 November at 12:12PM
    h2oh2o said:
    Thanks this is super helpful.

    The appliances come with a 5 year parts and labour warranty from the manufacturer so not sure there is much of a difference to me between price reduction & goodwill gesture?


    No worries :) 

    So my understanding is if you pushed them to offer a price reduction and they do that's the end of your consumer rights as you've taken the goods with their faults in return for a part refund. 

    If they offer goodwill then should something else go wrong in the future you'd still have consumer rights (to reject or a price reduction). 

    I understand there is a difficulty in obtaining another, plus you have a warranty, but as it stands say the microwave packed up in a months time you'd be entitled to reject and ask for a refund, as there has already been one repair attempt, rather than relying on the parts and labour warranty, should you choose to. 

    Since goodwill is on the cards I think it's better to accept this to cover yourself for the future. Of course if the warranty is all singing all dancing and the manufacturer will replace/refund if beyond repair then you should be set for the future either way :) 
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