Microwave oven apparently mis-described as new - seller refusing to refund installation costs

Sandtree

I am surprised that Fisher & Paykel cannot give you any history of the unit; I thought they were similar to Miele etc that whilst there are many retailers that product is almost uniquely sent direct by the UK distributor to the customer... even Miele UK dont hold stock of large goods and AO is the only UK company that does (and thats limited and the lower models).

Ultimately your statutory rights are to reject the item which can include the associated cost however that then leaves you with the oven and potential difficulty getting a matching microwave. Have you looked around for the microwave elsewhere? There is an argument that you can reject the order rather than just the item but when I was in a similar position opinion was very split

 

LaHostessAvecLaMostess

neilmcl said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

h2oh2o said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

h2oh2o said:

Hi all, will try keep this as short as poss.

Purchased 2 matching ovens (high spec - F&P) over the phone, paid by card.
Had electrician fit them day after delivery. Oven was fine but when microwave was connected to power it was tripping the electrics. We then realised it wasn't wrapped in plastic like the oven was so were a bit suspect about its condition.

Called the seller, they couldn't replace as it was the last one in stock so only option was to return both ovens. Not wanting to be without any ovens, I asked if it worth trying the manufacturer to see if they could replace quickly - seller agreed this would be a good first port of call. I called F&P and they said they needed to send an engineer who could come next day - given how soon this was I agreed.

Engineer came - unscrewed the outer casing of the oven to have a look and to his surprise the fan was loose (not attached to anything), the motor for the fan was missing and all cabling for the fan was missing. There was also scratching to the inner casing, indicative of tampering/use. Engineer said he never saw anything like that and there was no way the oven could be brand new. He then opened the inner casing to the cavity and found the motor loose and the cabling. He was able eventually able to connect it all up and got the microwave functioning properly without tripping electrics. F&P provided me a report stating the condition of the oven and remedy that was required. I also took pictures of the inside showing the loose fan.

I am unhappy with the microwave I received as all evidence suggests it is not new as described. I requested a 15% discount on the price paid (approx £1,350) for me to keep it. Alternatively, I suggested both ovens be replaced for similar models (at the sellers expense), or a full refund for both ovens plus the installation cost I incurred (given that there is no way I could have known the microwave was not brand new and faulty without incurring this. I have been chasing the seller for 2 weeks and they have been very unresponsive. They initially offered me a goodwill gesture of £50 for the microwave which I declined. Finally called me back today and categorically deny that the microwave could possibly be anything other than brand new as it was never returned to them and they don't sell graded / ex display / second hand goods (Though they upped the goodwill gesture to £100). They also suggested that because the ovens have been installed, I'd essentially "accepted them". I said I had not accepted them as I have not used them (as I've ben waiting for a resolution on my complaint) and I had reported the issue to them straight away and continuously followed up with my.

My understanding of the CRA is I am entitled to any reasonable costs incurred and I believe in this case the installation is a reasonable cost in this case and puts me back to the position I started in if they refund this together with the ovens. Is this correct?

We are in dispute about whether the microwave is brand new or not - I have a witness statement from my electrician, F&P report and photographs - all indicative that it was not brand new. I've raised a chargeback claim through my card company for the ovens but I would obviously need to recover electrician costs another way....


All help much appreciated!

You're entitled to your money back, which is what they/'re offering.  It's not their fault that you paid to have a faulty oven fitted after all.

Why did a competent electrician not test them properly before installation?

Thanks for your response.

Not sure what you mean by "test them properly" - he did test them. That was how the fault was discovered, and couldn't have been known without an electrician coming to do this.
Secondly, my complaint isn't only about the fault, it is the fact it was not, apparently, a brand new item (Again which I couldn't have known before the engineer opened it up)

You're entitled to a replacement, repair or refund as per your consumer rights. What makes you think the law says you're entitled to consequential damages?

You have a right to reject faulty goods.  You do not have a right (under law) to claim consequential damages.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20/enacted

I'm sorry, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The OP is entitled to all reasonable costs as a result of the breach of contract.

The OPs costs are not reasonable though.  They should have verified the product was working before engaging someone to fit it, or alternatively sourced a supplier to purchase and fit it.  By purchasing it themselves they've taken on the responsibility of ensuring the thing works first.

Sandtree

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

neilmcl said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

h2oh2o said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

h2oh2o said:

Hi all, will try keep this as short as poss.

Purchased 2 matching ovens (high spec - F&P) over the phone, paid by card.
Had electrician fit them day after delivery. Oven was fine but when microwave was connected to power it was tripping the electrics. We then realised it wasn't wrapped in plastic like the oven was so were a bit suspect about its condition.

Called the seller, they couldn't replace as it was the last one in stock so only option was to return both ovens. Not wanting to be without any ovens, I asked if it worth trying the manufacturer to see if they could replace quickly - seller agreed this would be a good first port of call. I called F&P and they said they needed to send an engineer who could come next day - given how soon this was I agreed.

Engineer came - unscrewed the outer casing of the oven to have a look and to his surprise the fan was loose (not attached to anything), the motor for the fan was missing and all cabling for the fan was missing. There was also scratching to the inner casing, indicative of tampering/use. Engineer said he never saw anything like that and there was no way the oven could be brand new. He then opened the inner casing to the cavity and found the motor loose and the cabling. He was able eventually able to connect it all up and got the microwave functioning properly without tripping electrics. F&P provided me a report stating the condition of the oven and remedy that was required. I also took pictures of the inside showing the loose fan.

I am unhappy with the microwave I received as all evidence suggests it is not new as described. I requested a 15% discount on the price paid (approx £1,350) for me to keep it. Alternatively, I suggested both ovens be replaced for similar models (at the sellers expense), or a full refund for both ovens plus the installation cost I incurred (given that there is no way I could have known the microwave was not brand new and faulty without incurring this. I have been chasing the seller for 2 weeks and they have been very unresponsive. They initially offered me a goodwill gesture of £50 for the microwave which I declined. Finally called me back today and categorically deny that the microwave could possibly be anything other than brand new as it was never returned to them and they don't sell graded / ex display / second hand goods (Though they upped the goodwill gesture to £100). They also suggested that because the ovens have been installed, I'd essentially "accepted them". I said I had not accepted them as I have not used them (as I've ben waiting for a resolution on my complaint) and I had reported the issue to them straight away and continuously followed up with my.

My understanding of the CRA is I am entitled to any reasonable costs incurred and I believe in this case the installation is a reasonable cost in this case and puts me back to the position I started in if they refund this together with the ovens. Is this correct?

We are in dispute about whether the microwave is brand new or not - I have a witness statement from my electrician, F&P report and photographs - all indicative that it was not brand new. I've raised a chargeback claim through my card company for the ovens but I would obviously need to recover electrician costs another way....


All help much appreciated!

You're entitled to your money back, which is what they/'re offering.  It's not their fault that you paid to have a faulty oven fitted after all.

Why did a competent electrician not test them properly before installation?

Thanks for your response.

Not sure what you mean by "test them properly" - he did test them. That was how the fault was discovered, and couldn't have been known without an electrician coming to do this.
Secondly, my complaint isn't only about the fault, it is the fact it was not, apparently, a brand new item (Again which I couldn't have known before the engineer opened it up)

You're entitled to a replacement, repair or refund as per your consumer rights. What makes you think the law says you're entitled to consequential damages?

You have a right to reject faulty goods.  You do not have a right (under law) to claim consequential damages.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20/enacted

I'm sorry, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The OP is entitled to all reasonable costs as a result of the breach of contract.

The OPs costs are not reasonable though.  They should have verified the product was working before engaging someone to fit it, or alternatively sourced a supplier to purchase and fit it.  By purchasing it themselves they've taken on the responsibility of ensuring the thing works first.

Depending on the exact model it may not be suitable for a 13amp plug and so can only be tested after an electrician wires it to fused spur. Given the order was for two items inc an oven, its even more likely the second item can only be tested after an electrician has fitted it.

I personally dont think its unreasonable if either item has to be fitted by an electrician to have booked someone to do the fitting and tested both at the same time. It is exactly what I did with our combination steam oven and warming draw even though technically the warming draw could have been tested via a normal plug.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Sandtree said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

neilmcl said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

h2oh2o said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

h2oh2o said:

Hi all, will try keep this as short as poss.

Purchased 2 matching ovens (high spec - F&P) over the phone, paid by card.
Had electrician fit them day after delivery. Oven was fine but when microwave was connected to power it was tripping the electrics. We then realised it wasn't wrapped in plastic like the oven was so were a bit suspect about its condition.

Called the seller, they couldn't replace as it was the last one in stock so only option was to return both ovens. Not wanting to be without any ovens, I asked if it worth trying the manufacturer to see if they could replace quickly - seller agreed this would be a good first port of call. I called F&P and they said they needed to send an engineer who could come next day - given how soon this was I agreed.

Engineer came - unscrewed the outer casing of the oven to have a look and to his surprise the fan was loose (not attached to anything), the motor for the fan was missing and all cabling for the fan was missing. There was also scratching to the inner casing, indicative of tampering/use. Engineer said he never saw anything like that and there was no way the oven could be brand new. He then opened the inner casing to the cavity and found the motor loose and the cabling. He was able eventually able to connect it all up and got the microwave functioning properly without tripping electrics. F&P provided me a report stating the condition of the oven and remedy that was required. I also took pictures of the inside showing the loose fan.

I am unhappy with the microwave I received as all evidence suggests it is not new as described. I requested a 15% discount on the price paid (approx £1,350) for me to keep it. Alternatively, I suggested both ovens be replaced for similar models (at the sellers expense), or a full refund for both ovens plus the installation cost I incurred (given that there is no way I could have known the microwave was not brand new and faulty without incurring this. I have been chasing the seller for 2 weeks and they have been very unresponsive. They initially offered me a goodwill gesture of £50 for the microwave which I declined. Finally called me back today and categorically deny that the microwave could possibly be anything other than brand new as it was never returned to them and they don't sell graded / ex display / second hand goods (Though they upped the goodwill gesture to £100). They also suggested that because the ovens have been installed, I'd essentially "accepted them". I said I had not accepted them as I have not used them (as I've ben waiting for a resolution on my complaint) and I had reported the issue to them straight away and continuously followed up with my.

My understanding of the CRA is I am entitled to any reasonable costs incurred and I believe in this case the installation is a reasonable cost in this case and puts me back to the position I started in if they refund this together with the ovens. Is this correct?

We are in dispute about whether the microwave is brand new or not - I have a witness statement from my electrician, F&P report and photographs - all indicative that it was not brand new. I've raised a chargeback claim through my card company for the ovens but I would obviously need to recover electrician costs another way....


All help much appreciated!

You're entitled to your money back, which is what they/'re offering.  It's not their fault that you paid to have a faulty oven fitted after all.

Why did a competent electrician not test them properly before installation?

Thanks for your response.

Not sure what you mean by "test them properly" - he did test them. That was how the fault was discovered, and couldn't have been known without an electrician coming to do this.
Secondly, my complaint isn't only about the fault, it is the fact it was not, apparently, a brand new item (Again which I couldn't have known before the engineer opened it up)

You're entitled to a replacement, repair or refund as per your consumer rights. What makes you think the law says you're entitled to consequential damages?

You have a right to reject faulty goods.  You do not have a right (under law) to claim consequential damages.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20/enacted

I'm sorry, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The OP is entitled to all reasonable costs as a result of the breach of contract.

The OPs costs are not reasonable though.  They should have verified the product was working before engaging someone to fit it, or alternatively sourced a supplier to purchase and fit it.  By purchasing it themselves they've taken on the responsibility of ensuring the thing works first.

Depending on the exact model it may not be suitable for a 13amp plug and so can only be tested after an electrician wires it to fused spur. Given the order was for two items inc an oven, its even more likely the second item can only be tested after an electrician has fitted it.

I personally dont think its unreasonable if either item has to be fitted by an electrician to have booked someone to do the fitting and tested both at the same time. It is exactly what I did with our combination steam oven and warming draw even though technically the warming draw could have been tested via a normal plug.

A sensible view point. 

Jumblebumble

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

neilmcl said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

h2oh2o said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

h2oh2o said:

Hi all, will try keep this as short as poss.

Purchased 2 matching ovens (high spec - F&P) over the phone, paid by card.
Had electrician fit them day after delivery. Oven was fine but when microwave was connected to power it was tripping the electrics. We then realised it wasn't wrapped in plastic like the oven was so were a bit suspect about its condition.

Called the seller, they couldn't replace as it was the last one in stock so only option was to return both ovens. Not wanting to be without any ovens, I asked if it worth trying the manufacturer to see if they could replace quickly - seller agreed this would be a good first port of call. I called F&P and they said they needed to send an engineer who could come next day - given how soon this was I agreed.

Engineer came - unscrewed the outer casing of the oven to have a look and to his surprise the fan was loose (not attached to anything), the motor for the fan was missing and all cabling for the fan was missing. There was also scratching to the inner casing, indicative of tampering/use. Engineer said he never saw anything like that and there was no way the oven could be brand new. He then opened the inner casing to the cavity and found the motor loose and the cabling. He was able eventually able to connect it all up and got the microwave functioning properly without tripping electrics. F&P provided me a report stating the condition of the oven and remedy that was required. I also took pictures of the inside showing the loose fan.

I am unhappy with the microwave I received as all evidence suggests it is not new as described. I requested a 15% discount on the price paid (approx £1,350) for me to keep it. Alternatively, I suggested both ovens be replaced for similar models (at the sellers expense), or a full refund for both ovens plus the installation cost I incurred (given that there is no way I could have known the microwave was not brand new and faulty without incurring this. I have been chasing the seller for 2 weeks and they have been very unresponsive. They initially offered me a goodwill gesture of £50 for the microwave which I declined. Finally called me back today and categorically deny that the microwave could possibly be anything other than brand new as it was never returned to them and they don't sell graded / ex display / second hand goods (Though they upped the goodwill gesture to £100). They also suggested that because the ovens have been installed, I'd essentially "accepted them". I said I had not accepted them as I have not used them (as I've ben waiting for a resolution on my complaint) and I had reported the issue to them straight away and continuously followed up with my.

My understanding of the CRA is I am entitled to any reasonable costs incurred and I believe in this case the installation is a reasonable cost in this case and puts me back to the position I started in if they refund this together with the ovens. Is this correct?

We are in dispute about whether the microwave is brand new or not - I have a witness statement from my electrician, F&P report and photographs - all indicative that it was not brand new. I've raised a chargeback claim through my card company for the ovens but I would obviously need to recover electrician costs another way....


All help much appreciated!

You're entitled to your money back, which is what they/'re offering.  It's not their fault that you paid to have a faulty oven fitted after all.

Why did a competent electrician not test them properly before installation?

Thanks for your response.

Not sure what you mean by "test them properly" - he did test them. That was how the fault was discovered, and couldn't have been known without an electrician coming to do this.
Secondly, my complaint isn't only about the fault, it is the fact it was not, apparently, a brand new item (Again which I couldn't have known before the engineer opened it up)

You're entitled to a replacement, repair or refund as per your consumer rights. What makes you think the law says you're entitled to consequential damages?

You have a right to reject faulty goods.  You do not have a right (under law) to claim consequential damages.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20/enacted

I'm sorry, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The OP is entitled to all reasonable costs as a result of the breach of contract.

The OPs costs are not reasonable though.  They should have verified the product was working before engaging someone to fit it, or alternatively sourced a supplier to purchase and fit it.  By purchasing it themselves they've taken on the responsibility of ensuring the thing works first.

This is an absurd argument and the OPs costs are totally reasonable .
Why should the OP not believe the factory quality control are doing their job properly?
If I buy a washing machine do I run it before engaging someone to remove the transit bolts and do you think that this would be a proper test even if I were to do something so stupid ?
If I buy a gas cooker or a central heating boiler do share with us exactly how I would verify it works before engaging a gas safe engineer to install it?

h2oh2o

Thanks all - I agree the installation cost was reasonable as there is no way I could have tested that the ovens were working without an electrician and they do this at the time of installation. Citizens Advice also suggested I could claim for extra meal costs while not being able to use the ovens (incase I needed to reject the goods) but I didn't bother going there.

The company increased their goodwill gesture to £180 to meet me in the middle and I have accepted. I should still be protected by the CRA as it is goodwill, and, I believe the F&P warranty is very comprehensive (I've been very impressed with them so far).

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

h2oh2o said:

Thanks all - I agree the installation cost was reasonable as there is no way I could have tested that the ovens were working without an electrician and they do this at the time of installation. Citizens Advice also suggested I could claim for extra meal costs while not being able to use the ovens (incase I needed to reject the goods) but I didn't bother going there.

The company increased their goodwill gesture to £180 to meet me in the middle and I have accepted. I should still be protected by the CRA as it is goodwill, and, I believe the F&P warranty is very comprehensive (I've been very impressed with them so far).

A nice result OP, thank you for coming back to let us know