Money Gifted by Parent who now needs to be in a care home.

KJAVW

Seeking help for an elderly friend on care home fees and recovery of monies gifted to a family member.

About 6 years ago, my friends elderly widowed mother sold up her home and gifted her daughter (my friend)  and her much younger son £100k each, keepting the rest for herself ( have no idea how much this was but I think it was a similar amount). The intention was that the care of her mum (who was generally healthy with a few age related frailties) would be split between her and her brother & his wife. 

What actually happened was that she ended up living with my elderly friend full time and was only charged £100 a month board as her daughter didn't want to profit further from her and didn't want her money (although she was by no means rich) as she was also retired with no mortgage and a decent pension purely because she was a widow.  Whilst it had been the original intention that the mothger would split her time between my friend and her son, not only did they not take her but rarely visited and did not give my single friend respite by way of looking after mum so she could have a break.  She accepted her lot and it was the intention to live out their years together and there was no suggestion of either of them needing care.

Like any Mother and Daughter they had their ups and downs but on the whole got along.  They went on holiday together, socialised together etc.  The daughter paid her way (admitedly from the monies her mother had given her), and Mum paid hers but she had a healthy bank balance from what she had left from the sale of her property. However my friend had to get taxi's everywhere with her mum as she did not drive and would have happily walked or got the bus if her mother hadn't been with her. My friend could not get a break by herself as she had no-one to look after her mum and so took holidays more befitting her mums needs than those she would have chosen to take.  

Without going into too much detail, after 3 years there was a falling out and the mother left (without telling her daughter) and went to her son and his wifes. She has been there 3 years. She is now in need of a care home following an unexpected stint in hospital and the brother and his family say my friend needs to repay the monies her Mum gave her, to pay her care fees.  Monies which they also got and have spent and so they have made it clear they are unable to contribute.  They have assets, just like my friend but unlike them, she is on her own and many years older. Her brother and his wife have had a significantly better income than my friend throughout their lives and its only becasue of the tragedy that befell my friend that she has a small house and a pension - which she would swop anyday to get her husband and child back,

She is not adverse to helping her mum by returning what she can but she is upset and somewhat bemused that because they frittered their money away and have nothing to show for it, they believe they don't have to contribute.  Whilst the figures are not known, it would appear the mothers money (remnants of the house sale) is now in a joint bank account with the son! 

Her mum is refusing to talk with her,  so she has no idea what the situation is. She is considering agreeing to match whatever her brother puts in - but he is making it clear he has nothing to give and it has to come from her as would any eventual funeral fees. I would have thought that if the local authority make her pay the money back then her brother would have to pay too but at no point was this done to dodge paying care home fees, my friend took her mum into her home and expected her to be in their joint care until the end.

My mate has a heart of gold and doesn't want to see her mum go without but I have advised her to see a financial advisor/Solicitor for advice. Does anyone know where she would stand with regard to recovery of the monies? I feel that if she is being asked for the monies back then the brother should surely have to pay too!

Savvy_Sue

I think the problem is that none of us can give any assurance about what will happen. 

Social Services will do the assessment. If your friend's mother is assessed as having the means to pay for her own care, then that's what will happen. If it's assessed that she would have had the means, had she not given away those sums, I don't know what happens. But your friend doesn't have to be bullied by her brother, and she can make it clear to Social Services that she no longer has a relationship with either of them.

She also doesn't have to pay for a funeral. The person who arranges it pays for it.

My only other suggestion is mediation.

gettingtheresometime

well playing devil’s advocate, won’t it be the mum that’s up the creek because won’t her assessment be done on the basis that she still has the money that she gifted the son & daughter?

Personally it sounds as if this was a disaster waiting to happen but sounds as if the friend needs to harden up...either that or book & pay for some out of this world holidays pdq.

elsien

If your friend’s mother goes into residential care or needs extra care at home then the local authority will complete a financial assessment. 

Depending on various factors at the time mother gave her money away (her health, why it was gifted, whether it was foreseeable she would need care in the future) it could be considered derivation of assets and mum will be treated as if she still has the money.
This would apply to both your friends share and that gifted to her brother. In your friends position I would sit tight until there was a lot more information. I would not give any money directly to the brother - if it is considered deprivation he will be equally liable but that determination has not yet been made. 

More information here:
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs40_deprivation_of_assets_in_social_care_fcs.pdf

In the meantime she could start gathering information about where the money went, in case she needs to get legal advice. 

KJAVW

Savvy _Sue - thank you.  I only need to know what the possibilities are as I don't know anyone who has been in this spot and she is so upset. I was hoping there was someone on the forum who had experience of this as I simply don't know the questions to ask as I didn't even know they did assessments, hence the explanation of her situation.

She has no idea how this request from her brother has come about, is it official or just him jumping the gun! Of course she wants her mum to be safe and sound but she is also a pensioner and is concerfned as to what will come.

elsien

KJAVW said:

Savvy _Sue - thank you.  I only need to know what the possibilities are as I don't know anyone who has been in this spot and she is so upset. I was hoping there was someone on the forum who had experience of this as I simply don't know the questions to ask as I didn't even know they did assessments, hence the explanation of her situation.

She has no idea how this request from her brother has come about, is it official or just him jumping the gun! Of course she wants her mum to be safe and sound but she is also a pensioner and is concerfned as to what will come.

And that’s exactly why she needs to sit tight till she hears anything from the local authority.

74jax

KJAVW said:

Savvy _Sue - thank you.  I only need to know what the possibilities are as I don't know anyone who has been in this spot and she is so upset. I was hoping there was someone on the forum who had experience of this as I simply don't know the questions to ask as I didn't even know they did assessments, hence the explanation of her situation.

She has no idea how this request from her brother has come about, is it official or just him jumping the gun! Of course she wants her mum to be safe and sound but she is also a pensioner and is concerfned as to what will come.

My experience was really straightforward, though I know of others who didn't have such a helpful social worker.
Mam was at home (with carers) but following a fall and not looking after herself she ended up in hospital and would not be released home. 
She had a social worker from when dad died and the hospital contacted social services but they gave her a new social worker. The SW worked with the hospital and mam to see the level of care needed.
The financial assessment form was really straightforward and we were guided. We had POA so declined the SW completing it with mam and we did it.  We had money from mam from around 10 years earlier when she was considering her options and us caring for her etc. We also had money from dad from around 3 years before. 
We completed the assessment but because I said I would pay, they didn't do their full assessment but kept it for when (if) my funding ran out. 
We had the money from 1) what we would have used to care for her 2) what dad left us and 3)her bank /house and so I paid direct to the care home. Social just wanted a new assessment each year, mainly showing we were still paying. My brother spent more money than me before the care home, but it was no real issue. 
For my MIL the assessment again was straightforward, the SW did it all and my husband and his sister didn't complete. They paid a 'top up' of a nominal amount so they could chose the carehome. 

KJAVW

elsien said:

KJAVW said:

Savvy _Sue - thank you.  I only need to know what the possibilities are as I don't know anyone who has been in this spot and she is so upset. I was hoping there was someone on the forum who had experience of this as I simply don't know the questions to ask as I didn't even know they did assessments, hence the explanation of her situation.

She has no idea how this request from her brother has come about, is it official or just him jumping the gun! Of course she wants her mum to be safe and sound but she is also a pensioner and is concerfned as to what will come.

And that’s exactly why she needs to sit tight till she hears anything from the local authority.

Thank you, that information is very helpful and gives me hope that it's maybe not as bad as it may seem.  Will tell her to sit tight and wait for someone official to get in touch with her.  She still has the bills for the adaptations to her house for her mum and her mum paid her board into her bank account.  But as she will admit, whilst she didn't personally need the adaptations herself at the time, she knew she would do eventually so it wasn't lost money for her.

Pollycat

KJAVW said:

That's not really helpful is it!  It goes without saying that my feelings don't come into it but I am trying to find out what her position is and to support her through it as she is not IT literate and has never had to deal with something like this so its all a worry for her.  I have known her for a long time and watched her battle with the loss of her family and through being a carer and there have been times when she has been on her knees and needed support. 

We all need friends and people to talk to and I am just asking for a few HELPFUL and constructive comments about what her situation is.  What will the financial assessment look like etc?   Will the fact that she had intended to look after her mum until her death be taken into account.   She is alone, scared and worried - have some commpassion!

When my Dad needed to go into a care home, the county council sent a financial assessor to go through Mum & Dad's finances.
He was self-funding and died before his savings reached £23K.
I was still asked some searching questions.

When my Mum needed to go into a care home, the same thing happened.
The financial assessor was at my house for 2 hours.
She wanted to see all sorts of paperwork, queried spends such as ground rent on her caravan.
Mum was below the threshold for self and part funding.

It was all quite stressful, even though there was nothing untoward in their finances.

You probably don't want to hear this...but if I had been in the same situation as your friend, I would have been very worried.

I agree with Elsien that your friend's best way forward is to wait until the council get in touch with her.
And she should be very careful about what she says to her brother regarding this situation.

But...what about the money your friend's Mum had after the sale of her house?
Has that all been spent since she went to live with her son?

KJAVW

Pollycat said:

KJAVW said:

That's not really helpful is it!  It goes without saying that my feelings don't come into it but I am trying to find out what her position is and to support her through it as she is not IT literate and has never had to deal with something like this so its all a worry for her.  I have known her for a long time and watched her battle with the loss of her family and through being a carer and there have been times when she has been on her knees and needed support. 

We all need friends and people to talk to and I am just asking for a few HELPFUL and constructive comments about what her situation is.  What will the financial assessment look like etc?   Will the fact that she had intended to look after her mum until her death be taken into account.   She is alone, scared and worried - have some commpassion!

When my Dad needed to go into a care home, the county council sent a financial assessor to go through Mum & Dad's finances.
He was self-funding and died before his savings reached £23K.
I was still asked some searching questions.

When my Mum needed to go into a care home, the same thing happened.
The financial assessor was at my house for 2 hours.
She wanted to see all sorts of paperwork, queried spends such as ground rent on her caravan.
Mum was below the threshold for self and part funding.

It was all quite stressful, even though there was nothing untoward in their finances.

You probably don't want to hear this...but if I had been in the same situation as your friend, I would have been very worried.

I agree with Elsien that your friend's best way forward is to wait until the council get in touch with her.
And she should be very careful about what she says to her brother regarding this situation.

But...what about the money your friend's Mum had after the sale of her house?
Has that all been spent since she went to live with her son?

Thanks for that, again really helpful. Whilst she knows what her mum had when she was living with her, she knows nothing since her mum left except the comment her mum made about her bank account now having her sons name on it as a joint account, that they get some type of benefit for looking after her and that she was paying significantly more a month in board but we appreciate that they may of had to. My friend has no idea what is in that account now.  Her sister in law/brother just said that she needed to pay the money back and that they had none to give.

Pollycat

KJAVW said:

Pollycat said:

KJAVW said:

That's not really helpful is it!  It goes without saying that my feelings don't come into it but I am trying to find out what her position is and to support her through it as she is not IT literate and has never had to deal with something like this so its all a worry for her.  I have known her for a long time and watched her battle with the loss of her family and through being a carer and there have been times when she has been on her knees and needed support. 

We all need friends and people to talk to and I am just asking for a few HELPFUL and constructive comments about what her situation is.  What will the financial assessment look like etc?   Will the fact that she had intended to look after her mum until her death be taken into account.   She is alone, scared and worried - have some commpassion!

When my Dad needed to go into a care home, the county council sent a financial assessor to go through Mum & Dad's finances.
He was self-funding and died before his savings reached £23K.
I was still asked some searching questions.

When my Mum needed to go into a care home, the same thing happened.
The financial assessor was at my house for 2 hours.
She wanted to see all sorts of paperwork, queried spends such as ground rent on her caravan.
Mum was below the threshold for self and part funding.

It was all quite stressful, even though there was nothing untoward in their finances.

You probably don't want to hear this...but if I had been in the same situation as your friend, I would have been very worried.

I agree with Elsien that your friend's best way forward is to wait until the council get in touch with her.
And she should be very careful about what she says to her brother regarding this situation.

But...what about the money your friend's Mum had after the sale of her house?
Has that all been spent since she went to live with her son?

Thanks for that, again really helpful. Whilst she knows what her mum had when she was living with her, she knows nothing since her mum left except the comment her mum made about her bank account now having her sons name on it as a joint account, that they get some type of benefit for looking after her and that she was paying significantly more a month in board but we appreciate that they may of had to. My friend has no idea what is in that account now.  Her sister in law/brother just said that she needed to pay the money back and that they had none to give.

It sounds like he is trying scare tactics.

The council won't take his word for it, really they won't.

gettingtheresometime said:

well playing devil’s advocate, won’t it be the mum that’s up the creek because won’t her assessment be done on the basis that she still has the money that she gifted the son & daughter?

^^^ this is correct.
They will look at your friend's Mum's account(s) first as she is the person who is liable to pay any care home fees (depending on her financial situation).