Interactive PIP review form - AR1

Spoonie_Turtle

Deleted_User said:

I don't have an aid - unless you count my wife!
And in any case it says "anyone who cannot walk 20 metres without an aid - scores 12 points" they should NOT be considered able to "stand and move"

But you still need to tell them if having an aid still wouldn't help, and why.  Otherwise they'll simply assume you should try one and it would be fine.

The law refers to 'either aided or unaided' in the descriptors, the DWP handbook is just guidance.  If you have to take it to tribunal they will want to know whether an aid would help or not.
https://pipinfo.net/activities/moving-around

poppy12345

Deleted_User said:

I don't have an aid - unless you count my wife!
And in any case it says "anyone who cannot walk 20 metres without an aid - scores 12 points" they should NOT be considered able to "stand and move"

Putting one foot on the floor is standing. You previously mentioned a leg brace, which is an aid, therefore if you can walk the required distance with your leg brace, regularly and reliably then you won't score 12 points. We are constantly going round in circles here.

You can't make the descriptors fit you, doesn't matter how hard you try.

Muttleythefrog

Deleted_User said:

I don't have an aid - unless you count my wife!
And in any case it says "anyone who cannot walk 20 metres without an aid - scores 12 points" they should NOT be considered able to "stand and move"

All you can do is make your case in your form submission and with any supporting evidence... and indeed in any in person (phone or otherwise) assessment if one is required. There are the descriptors and there is guidance (which can change due to upper tribunal rulings etc) on how they're interpreted/applied as you've been advised.... however... there is also the human element that isn't always particularly reliable in giving opinion or making decision in relation to any particular case and those descriptors. Therefore what descriptors they do find applicable is no exact science. In the end all you can do is be honest and try to give relevant information.

Remember it is the DWP (or an appeal tribunal if unfortunate enough to need one) that take the decisions (typically in line with the 'independent' HCP report) and therefore need persuading of disablements.... 

[Deleted User]

poppy12345 said:

Deleted_User said:

I don't have an aid - unless you count my wife!
And in any case it says "anyone who cannot walk 20 metres without an aid - scores 12 points" they should NOT be considered able to "stand and move"

Putting one foot on the floor is standing. You previously mentioned a leg brace, which is an aid, therefore if you can walk the required distance with your leg brace, regularly and reliably then you won't score 12 points. We are constantly going round in circles here.

You can't make the descriptors fit you, doesn't matter how hard you try.

So now only one legged claimants will be succesful?
Is that what you are claiming?
I understand that over the 25% of PIP claimants receive max mobility - that's an awful lot of one legged people (over the 500,000!).

[Deleted User]

Muttleythefrog said:

Deleted_User said:

I don't have an aid - unless you count my wife!
And in any case it says "anyone who cannot walk 20 metres without an aid - scores 12 points" they should NOT be considered able to "stand and move"

All you can do is make your case in your form submission and with any supporting evidence... and indeed in any in person (phone or otherwise) assessment if one is required. There are the descriptors and there is guidance (which can change due to tribunal rulings etc) on how they're interpreted/applied as you've been advised.... however... there is also the human element that isn't always particularly reliable in giving opinion or making decision in relation to any particular case and those descriptors. Therefore what descriptors they do find applicable is no exact science. In the end all you can do is be honest and try to give relevant information.

Remember it is the DWP (or an appeal tribunal if unfortunate enough to need one) that take the decisions (typically in line with the 'independent' HCP report) and therefore need persuading of disablements.... 

Thanks I. Intend to..... 

poppy12345

Deleted_User said:

poppy12345 said:

Deleted_User said:

I don't have an aid - unless you count my wife!
And in any case it says "anyone who cannot walk 20 metres without an aid - scores 12 points" they should NOT be considered able to "stand and move"

Putting one foot on the floor is standing. You previously mentioned a leg brace, which is an aid, therefore if you can walk the required distance with your leg brace, regularly and reliably then you won't score 12 points. We are constantly going round in circles here.

You can't make the descriptors fit you, doesn't matter how hard you try.

So now only one legged claimants will be succesful?
Is that what you are claiming?
I understand that over the 25% of PIP claimants receive max mobility - that's an awful lot of one legged people (over the 500,000!).

That is definitely not what i said. I claim Enhanced mobility but i can walk, just not reliably and definitely not without pain, even when using my aid. My daughter claims Enhanced mobility and she can run and walk...

You are trying to make the descriptors fit you, which is not going to help.

All you need to do is apply and fill out the form.. but i'm sure you said you were going to apply quite sometime ago, unless i have you mixed up with another member who seemed to have a very simialar disability to yours.

Spoonie_Turtle

It's really not that complicated.

The question is, can you, with an aid (either one you already use, or hypothetically with an aid that exists that you don't yet own), stand and then walk 20m reliably, without severe discomfort, repeatedly, in a reasonable time, and to an acceptance standard (e.g. without falling over) for more than 50% of the time?  Yes or no (rhetorical, not asking you to tell us, you only need to tell DWP).  If not, you need to tell them why.  Simple.

Substitute different distances for each descriptor and then you'll be able to work out which one applies to you.

[Deleted User]

Spoonie_Turtle said:

It's really not that complicated.

The question is, can you, with an aid (either one you already use, or hypothetically with an aid that exists that you don't yet own), stand and then walk 20m reliably, without severe discomfort, repeatedly, in a reasonable time, and to an acceptance standard (e.g. without falling over) for more than 50% of the time?  Yes or no (rhetorical, not asking you to tell us, you only need to tell DWP).  If not, you need to tell them why.  Simple.

Substitute different distances for each descriptor and then you'll be able to work out which one applies to you.

No I can't - because I am unable to walk with a hyperthetical / virtual leg brace - could you (or Poppy) ?

poppy12345

Deleted_User said:

poppy12345 said:

Deleted_User said:

poppy12345 said:

Deleted_User said:

I don't have an aid - unless you count my wife!
And in any case it says "anyone who cannot walk 20 metres without an aid - scores 12 points" they should NOT be considered able to "stand and move"

Putting one foot on the floor is standing. You previously mentioned a leg brace, which is an aid, therefore if you can walk the required distance with your leg brace, regularly and reliably then you won't score 12 points. We are constantly going round in circles here.

You can't make the descriptors fit you, doesn't matter how hard you try.

So now only one legged claimants will be succesful?
Is that what you are claiming?
I understand that over the 25% of PIP claimants receive max mobility - that's an awful lot of one legged people (over the 500,000!).

That is definitely not what i said. I claim Enhanced mobility but i can walk, just not reliably and definitely not without pain, even when using my aid. My daughter claims Enhanced mobility and she can run and walk...

You are trying to make the descriptors fit you, which is not going to help.

All you need to do is apply and fill out the form.. but i'm sure you said you were going to apply quite sometime ago, unless i have you mixed up with another member who seemed to have a very simialar disability to yours.

What grounds are you claiming enhanced mobility using ? definitely not what I call "mobility" You admit yourself that you can walk, as can your daughter (and "run")

How dare you question mine and my daughters health conditions and PIP awards! You clearly either haven't read the links that have been posted here, or you've read them and haven't understood them.

Descriptor E (12 points): Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided

As you can see descriptor E "moving around" is not about being unable to walk at all. It's about the distance you can walk and can you do that regularly and reliably, without pain and discomfort. I have never said i can't walk. I can only walk a couple of metres without stopping in extreme pain and discomfort and i definitely can't do this same distance more than once a day.

As for my daughter, following and planning a journey is for those with mental health, cognitive and sensory impairments.

Activity 11 – planning and following journeys

This activity considers a claimant’s ability to plan and follow the route of a journey. It is useful separately to consider:

• ability to plan the route of a journey in advance
• ability to leave the home and embark on a journey and
• ability to follow the intended route once they leave the home

This activity is designed for limitations on mobility deriving from mental health, cognitive and sensory impairments, whereas activity 12 is generally designed for limitations from physical problems.

She's 21 and has never been outside the door alone. She wouldn't know which direction to go in for our local shop. For these reasons any many more she has someone with her everywhere she goes. She does not claim PIP for any physical conditions.

As for the "leg brace" I'm sure i read that you wear one but your profile is set to private so i can't look back.

Edit to add, i found this thread.https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6305459/pip-mobility-question/p1 Which you wrote this in your first comment.

"I guess that I am asking what do I do - I cannot move anywhere near 20 metres without aids - but probably more than 50 metres with aids..."

I'm going to wish you goodluck with your claim but you won't have any further replies from me because i'm now out!

Spoonie_Turtle

Deleted_User said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

It's really not that complicated.

The question is, can you, with an aid (either one you already use, or hypothetically with an aid that exists that you don't yet own), stand and then walk 20m reliably, without severe discomfort, repeatedly, in a reasonable time, and to an acceptance standard (e.g. without falling over) for more than 50% of the time?  Yes or no (rhetorical, not asking you to tell us, you only need to tell DWP).  If not, you need to tell them why.  Simple.

Substitute different distances for each descriptor and then you'll be able to work out which one applies to you.

No I can't - because I am unable to walk with a hyperthetical / virtual leg brace - could you (or Poppy) ?

How about with a rollator, crutches, etc.?  Have to think about all aids you could be reasonably expected to try and detail whether they would help or not.

And to answer your question, no, the distance I can move without severe discomfort is 5-10m most days (or less than 5m on worse days) but I can't repeat that without prolonged rests on between.  No aids exist to alleviate the difficulties I have except a powered wheelchair (which obviously does not count as walking!!).

You have all the information you need, repeated explanations which should be more than enough to clarify any confusion, and I wish you the best with your application.  But in light of your extremely rude response to poppy I will not be further engaging with you on the subject of mobility.