Safest way to withdraw large sum of cash in respect of AML precautions

BooJewels

I find myself in a tricky situation - not the first with the same person recently.   To try and cut a long story short, my husband and I discovered a few years ago that an elderly family member was holding a lot of cash in an unsafe manner.  We took a number of mitigating measures to reduce their risk and one of those was us taking custody of a chunk of it ourselves - most of which I put into a savings account on their behalf, but under my control - that was what they wanted at the time as they didn't want another suspect family member knowing about it or having access to it in any way.  At the time, we were executors of their will and Attorneys under an LPA.  It was intended to be an emergency fund or to distribute to family according to her will when the time came.  It's gained a couple of years worth of measly interest in the process.

My husband passed away this summer and this has totally changed the family dynamic.  Consequently, having reminded her about this money, which she claimed to have totally forgotten about, she's been giving it some thought and now wants it back with some urgency, as cash.  I am happy to return it, I was never comfortable with the responsibility of having it - and am certainly not now - hence I reminded her about it.  I would be much happier to transfer it digitally, but she's having none of it and without account numbers, I can't force that option.

I am terrified of triggering any AML red flags (it is a bit more than the 10k € limit) and getting my account frozen (house sale just going through) and my thoughts are to just ring and make an arrangement with the bank to withdraw it all at once and get it to her the same day.  Is that the safest way of doing it (bank-wise at least), to minimise any investigation at the bank?  I will need to take ID etc and set it up in advance, according to their own published notes, as it's more than their daily counter limit.  I think withdrawing smaller amounts from different banks/accounts will just draw more attention to it, so I've dismissed that option.

Daliah

Transfer it to your current account, then write a cheque and give that to her.

BooJewels

I wish it were that easy @Daliah, I would have done it already.  She wants it as cash.  And by that, I mean folding twenties.  That's the troublesome aspect of it.

cx6

If you transfer it to her or write a cheque, could she then take it out in cash herself at her bank?

You don't have to put yourself at risk even though she is demanding it.

Sea_Shell

Another vote here for a cheque.   What she then chooses to do with it (or not do) is not your problem.

You just need to mentally ringfence the money, until the cheque is cashed/cleared.

Does she actually not have a bank account, or is she just being awkward, for some strange reason?

BooJewels

@cx6 I can't transfer it, as I don't have any account details, so that simply isn't an option unfortunately. 

But I'm starting to think there is more merit in the cheque idea.  I'd dismissed it early on, but now re-thinking it, after Daliah's suggestion, it might be an option.  I was just thinking that I could actually write two or three cheques for smaller amounts and then she can choose where she pays it in - gives her a bit of flexibility.  I know that she has two current accounts at least, so she could share it between them if she wants.  It also gives me a paper trail for her having the money back.  

Daliah

BooJewels said:

I wish it were that easy @Daliah, I would have done it already.  She wants it as cash.  And by that, I mean folding twenties.  That's the troublesome aspect of it.

She can want - you are in charge. By giving her a cheque, you have discharged your responsibility, and removed further possibilities of getting accused of being part of a shady money laundering scheme. Although you are already implicated by handling a large cash sum when you agreed to "rescue" her money in the first instance.

BooJewels

Sea_Shell said:

Another vote here for a cheque.   What she then chooses to do with it (or not do) is not your problem.

You just need to mentally ringfence the money, until the cheque is cashed/cleared.

Does she actually not have a bank account, or is she just being awkward, for some strange reason?

I'm good at ringfencing money and controlling my finances daily, to the penny.  So that's not an issue.   I'm coming round to the cheque idea, it's feeling progressively more appealing.  

She does have bank accounts and I don't know why on this occasion she really wants it back in cash, it just doesn't make sense for her safety or a number of reasons.  She's in her 90s, it's perhaps just a generational concept.  It's making me incredibly uncomfortable.

BooJewels

Daliah said:

BooJewels said:

I wish it were that easy @Daliah, I would have done it already.  She wants it as cash.  And by that, I mean folding twenties.  That's the troublesome aspect of it.

She can want - you are in charge. By giving her a cheque, you have discharged your responsibility, and removed further possibilities of getting accused of being part of a shady money laundering scheme. Although you are already implicated by handling a large cash sum when you agreed to "rescue" her money in the first instance.

In our defence, I set up the savings account on-line, a few days before we had an appointment at the bank to deal with a number of issues.  We paid the initial amount of cash in at that appointment and asked for a note to be put on the account that it wasn't our money and we were holding it in trust for this family member and we would be adding to it over time and we showed them the LPA documents - that was already in place a good while before this meeting.  So we tried to do due diligence for that process.  The bank weren't seemingly at all concerned about it at the time.  So I don't feel that we did anything 'shady'. The money has sat, without any further transactions, in the account, for over 2 years.  I suspect that actual money laundering tends to move a bit faster than that.

At the time, she claimed that another family member had been using the details of her debit card to make on-line purchases (at least, there were items on her statement that she claimed that she didn't recognise) and she didn't want much money sitting in her current accounts in case she suddenly found it emptied.

MattMattMattUK

BooJewels said:

I find myself in a tricky situation - not the first with the same person recently.   To try and cut a long story short, my husband and I discovered a few years ago that an elderly family member was holding a lot of cash in an unsafe manner.  We took a number of mitigating measures to reduce their risk and one of those was us taking custody of a chunk of it ourselves - most of which I put into a savings account on their behalf, but under my control - that was what they wanted at the time as they didn't want another suspect family member knowing about it or having access to it in any way.  At the time, we were executors of their will and Attorneys under an LPA.  It was intended to be an emergency fund or to distribute to family according to her will when the time came.  It's gained a couple of years worth of measly interest in the process.

My husband passed away this summer and this has totally changed the family dynamic.  Consequently, having reminded her about this money, which she claimed to have totally forgotten about, she's been giving it some thought and now wants it back with some urgency, as cash.  I am happy to return it, I was never comfortable with the responsibility of having it - and am certainly not now - hence I reminded her about it.  I would be much happier to transfer it digitally, but she's having none of it and without account numbers, I can't force that option.

I am terrified of triggering any AML red flags (it is a bit more than the 10k € limit) and getting my account frozen (house sale just going through) and my thoughts are to just ring and make an arrangement with the bank to withdraw it all at once and get it to her the same day.  Is that the safest way of doing it (bank-wise at least), to minimise any investigation at the bank?  I will need to take ID etc and set it up in advance, according to their own published notes, as it's more than their daily counter limit.  I think withdrawing smaller amounts from different banks/accounts will just draw more attention to it, so I've dismissed that option.

Tell her she can have the money, but not as cash, either a bank transfer, or a cheque. It would be unreasonable to deny her the money, it is entirely reasonable to refuse to supply it as cash. 

eskbanker

BooJewels said:

Daliah said:

BooJewels said:

I wish it were that easy @Daliah, I would have done it already.  She wants it as cash.  And by that, I mean folding twenties.  That's the troublesome aspect of it.

She can want - you are in charge. By giving her a cheque, you have discharged your responsibility, and removed further possibilities of getting accused of being part of a shady money laundering scheme. Although you are already implicated by handling a large cash sum when you agreed to "rescue" her money in the first instance.

In our defence, I set up the savings account on-line, a few days before we had an appointment at the bank to deal with a number of issues.  We paid the initial amount of cash in at that appointment and asked for a note to be put on the account that it wasn't our money and we were holding it in trust for this family member and we would be adding to it over time and we showed them the LPA documents - that was already in place a good while before this meeting.  So we tried to do due diligence for that process.  The bank weren't seemingly at all concerned about it at the time.  So I don't feel that we did anything 'shady'. The money has sat, without any further transactions, in the account, for over 2 years.  I suspect that actual money laundering tends to move a bit faster than that.

At the time, she claimed that another family member had been using the details of her debit card to make on-line purchases (at least, there were items on her statement that she claimed that she didn't recognise) and she didn't want much money sitting in her current accounts in case she suddenly found it emptied.

While I can see why you felt you were putting in place some sort of audit trail and the bank were happy, the fact remains that money held in an account in your name is legally your money, which could cause issues in the event of any challenge from other family members via the OPG, as such funds should either be in the relative's name (even if actually managed by an attorney), or formally loaned, or gifted to you.