Merchant refuses to honour a warranty return, what can I do?

Guss

When goods are faulty, if you return them within six months, then it's up to the shop to prove they weren't faulty when you bought them. After this, the burden of proof shifts and it's up to you to prove they were faulty when you bought them.

TBH I wasn't aware of this and it's going to be hard to prove what was sold as a Waterproof breathable rain jacket isn't quite as waterproof as they say. The only way to do this is for the retailer or myself would be to go out cycling in the rain or perhaps test it in the shower and I don't think that's going to happen. Why the retailer isn't offering to send it back to the manufacturer to be checked I don't know. This seems to be the only obvious route to resolving this which I'm sure any reasonable retailer would do?! I'm not asking for a refund, simply a replacement if the manufacturer finds in my favour. It's called customer service.

jonesey1985

Guss said:

When goods are faulty, if you return them within six months, then it's up to the shop to prove they weren't faulty when you bought them. After this, the burden of proof shifts and it's up to you to prove they were faulty when you bought them.

TBH I wasn't aware of this and it's going to be hard to prove what was sold as a Waterproof breathable rain jacket isn't quite as waterproof as they say. The only way to do this is for the retailer or myself would be to go out cycling in the rain or perhaps test it in the shower and I don't think that's going to happen. Why the retailer isn't offering to send it back to the manufacturer to be checked I don't know. This seems to be the only obvious route to resolving this which I'm sure any reasonable retailer would do?! I'm not asking for a refund, simply a replacement if the manufacturer finds in my favour. It's called customer service.

What about the manufacturer's suggestion? Why are you not trying that avenue?  It's a bit of an odd suggestion, admittedly, but if it works I don't see the issue.

theonlywayisup

Guss said:

When goods are faulty, if you return them within six months, then it's up to the shop to prove they weren't faulty when you bought them. After this, the burden of proof shifts and it's up to you to prove they were faulty when you bought them.

TBH I wasn't aware of this and it's going to be hard to prove what was sold as a Waterproof breathable rain jacket isn't quite as waterproof as they say. The only way to do this is for the retailer or myself would be to go out cycling in the rain or perhaps test it in the shower and I don't think that's going to happen. Why the retailer isn't offering to send it back to the manufacturer to be checked I don't know. This seems to be the only obvious route to resolving this which I'm sure any reasonable retailer would do?! I'm not asking for a refund, simply a replacement if the manufacturer finds in my favour. It's called customer service.

The only way isn't as you suggest.  There will be someone who can examine the item and show it has complied/failed.  Unfortunately this may not be cost effective or easy, but it can be achieved. 

Apologies if this is not relevant but I have scanned this thread on my phone - is there a warranty in place and if so, what are the T&C.  Are you not able to comply? 

Manxman_in_exile

theonlywayisup said:

Guss said:

When goods are faulty, if you return them within six months, then it's up to the shop to prove they weren't faulty when you bought them. After this, the burden of proof shifts and it's up to you to prove they were faulty when you bought them.

TBH I wasn't aware of this and it's going to be hard to prove what was sold as a Waterproof breathable rain jacket isn't quite as waterproof as they say. The only way to do this is for the retailer or myself would be to go out cycling in the rain or perhaps test it in the shower and I don't think that's going to happen. Why the retailer isn't offering to send it back to the manufacturer to be checked I don't know. This seems to be the only obvious route to resolving this which I'm sure any reasonable retailer would do?! I'm not asking for a refund, simply a replacement if the manufacturer finds in my favour. It's called customer service.

...There will be someone who can examine the item and show it has complied/failed.  Unfortunately this may not be cost effective or easy, but it can be achieved... 

Guss could start by asking advice from these guys  Scottish Mountain Gear

I sent my and my wife's Berghaus Goretex jackets to them to be professionally re-proofed and re-taped after years of use and home re-proofing in the washing machine.  They were able to do my jacket but told us that my wife's jacket was far too worn to waste money on re-proofing.  (I was impressed that they wouldn't let me waste money on even attempting a re-proof).

I don't know if Guss's jacket is Goretex or not, but I suspect the people at SMG have experience in working with most "waterproof" outdoor materials.  If I were Gus, I'd contact them and ask if they could examine the jacket  and provide an opinion on why it had failed.  Faulty materials/manufacture or wear and tear?  He could ask for a repair quote too - just in case he ends up having to ask for a partial refund to repair.  (The jacket would have to be sent to Edinburgh of course for inspection etc.  Only Gus can decide how much time and trouble all this may be worth).

[Edit:  I'd be interested to know who the retailer is and who the US manufacturer is.  I don't buy a lot of cycling clothing these days, but it's always handy to know how retailers treat their customers]

[Edit 2:  I used SMG at the time (3 - 4 years ago) because they were then recommended by Berghaus to repair their Goretex clothing.  I think Berghaus do their own repairs in-house now.  whether that means anything I don't know, but I was happy with what SMG did for us.  Will cost Guss nothing to call them, explain the problem, and ask if they can help at all..]

Guss

jonesey1985 said:

Guss said:

When goods are faulty, if you return them within six months, then it's up to the shop to prove they weren't faulty when you bought them. After this, the burden of proof shifts and it's up to you to prove they were faulty when you bought them.

TBH I wasn't aware of this and it's going to be hard to prove what was sold as a Waterproof breathable rain jacket isn't quite as waterproof as they say. The only way to do this is for the retailer or myself would be to go out cycling in the rain or perhaps test it in the shower and I don't think that's going to happen. Why the retailer isn't offering to send it back to the manufacturer to be checked I don't know. This seems to be the only obvious route to resolving this which I'm sure any reasonable retailer would do?! I'm not asking for a refund, simply a replacement if the manufacturer finds in my favour. It's called customer service.

What about the manufacturer's suggestion? Why are you not trying that avenue?  It's a bit of an odd suggestion, admittedly, but if it works I don't see the issue.

Yes I've already contacted Snow & Rock who were listed on the manufacturer's website as an option but they refused to help as it wasn't bought from them directly and I honestly don't blame them as they sell very little from this manufacturer. Below is a copy of what is on their website. They are fully aware of the impasse with the retailer and I've just emailed them with the response from Snow & Rock. I'm not hopeful as they've ignored 2 out of 3 previous emails I've already sent them.

Purchases made from US or Canada dealers to international locations are unauthorized and may not be eligible for warranty replacement.

• Need assistance with a warranty item?

  • Please contact the store you originally purchased the item from.

  • If this is not feasible, please contact a store located near you.

  • Contact a local distributor near you for more regional information.

  • Any item purchased from an unauthorized seller may not be eligible for warranty service.

Guss

Manxman_in_exile said:

theonlywayisup said:

Guss said:

When goods are faulty, if you return them within six months, then it's up to the shop to prove they weren't faulty when you bought them. After this, the burden of proof shifts and it's up to you to prove they were faulty when you bought them.

TBH I wasn't aware of this and it's going to be hard to prove what was sold as a Waterproof breathable rain jacket isn't quite as waterproof as they say. The only way to do this is for the retailer or myself would be to go out cycling in the rain or perhaps test it in the shower and I don't think that's going to happen. Why the retailer isn't offering to send it back to the manufacturer to be checked I don't know. This seems to be the only obvious route to resolving this which I'm sure any reasonable retailer would do?! I'm not asking for a refund, simply a replacement if the manufacturer finds in my favour. It's called customer service.

...There will be someone who can examine the item and show it has complied/failed.  Unfortunately this may not be cost effective or easy, but it can be achieved... 

Guss could start by asking advice from these guys  Scottish Mountain Gear

I sent my and my wife's Berghaus Goretex jackets to them to be professionally re-proofed and re-taped after years of use and home re-proofing in the washing machine.  They were able to do my jacket but told us that my wife's jacket was far too worn to waste money on re-proofing.  (I was impressed that they wouldn't let me waste money on even attempting a re-proof).

I don't know if Guss's jacket is Goretex or not, but I suspect the people at SMG have experience in working with most "waterproof" outdoor materials.  If I were Gus, I'd contact them and ask if they could examine the jacket  and provide an opinion on why it had failed.  Faulty materials/manufacture or wear and tear?  He could ask for a repair quote too - just in case he ends up having to ask for a partial refund to repair.  (The jacket would have to be sent to Edinburgh of course for inspection etc.  Only Gus can decide how much time and trouble all this may be worth).

[Edit:  I'd be interested to know who the retailer is and who the US manufacturer is.  I don't buy a lot of cycling clothing these days, but it's always handy to know how retailers treat their customers]

[Edit 2:  I used SMG at the time (3 - 4 years ago) because they were then recommended by Berghaus to repair their Goretex clothing.  I think Berghaus do their own repairs in-house now.  whether that means anything I don't know, but I was happy with what SMG did for us.  Will cost Guss nothing to call them, explain the problem, and ask if they can help at all..]

It's an Outdoor Research Helium 2 jacket which I bought from Outdoor Action UK. Certainly the suggestion you are making is an option, I'll for now be pushing OR to honour their warranty regardless of my geographical location or at least use one of their contacts in the UK to be a bit more proactive and help me. 

I'm in this daft situation where the retailer is hiding behind the requirement for me to prove this jacket does not fulfil it's main function and from one photo the retailer has concluded I'm making this all up. The manufacturer states:

• International Infinite Guarantee

• The Infinite Guarantee covers your gear through the lifetime of the product. Consumer protection laws vary depending on the country and regional distributors uphold the spirit of the Infinite Guarantee to the best of their abilities. Ultimately, Outdoor Research stands behind its International Distributor partners and the local warranties they uphold.

• If you are having trouble getting in touch with a location near you to resolve a warranty claim, please contact international.info@outdoorresearch.com and our US-based team will work to assist you further.

• Returns must be routed through the Retailer the item was originally purchased from.

Well the OR team have ignored my last 2 emails, thanks guys. Have made OR fully aware of the situation let's see what they do now that Snow & Rock are not interested.

Spies

Have they not suggested that jackets need re-waterprooofing from time to time?

Precisely when depends on how often they're getting wet. 

Alderbank

Your consumer rights are only with Outdoor Action UK. Outdoor Research are a well respected company and offer a good guarantee in the US but they are upfront in that they themselves only operate their warranty in North America.

However dissatisfied you are with Outdoor Action, the only consumer rights you have are against them. You have no rights against any other retailer, or Outdoor Research or its International Distributors.

How does your jacket look when it's wet? Does water bead on the surface? If not you might benefit from a water repellent spray. The original treatment fades surprisingly quickly especially after washing the jacket. This is the commonest reason for jackets appear to start to leak.

Manxman_in_exile

I'd say Outdoor Research are certainly a respected manufacturer - they make good quality, usually reliable, kit.  My wife has several items of their's.

Is it this jacket by any chance, or is it a different Helium?  [Edit:  Sorry - forgot the link.  See next post]  I'd be a bit dubious that Pertex could be 100% waterproof, but it says the Diamond Fuse technology makes it so... so it must be...

Have you followed all the care instructions etc, especially about washing and re-proofing?  You probably know that when washing any outdoors "waterproof" clothing you need to use a non-bio liquid detergent - preferably a specialist cleaner from someone like Nikwax or Grainger.  Waitrose sell a Goretex cleaner as well.  

As Alderbank says, if water doesn't bead on the jacket then it needs re-proofing.  I wouldn't use a spray if the jacket doesn't have a lining.  I'd use a proprietary liquid re-proofer from Nikwax or Grainger.  You use it in the washing machine after you've washed the jacket.

I'd still 'phone or email Scottish Mountain Gear and ask their advice.  See what they have to say.

Manxman_in_exile

Whoops!  Forgot the link!  Outdoor Research Helium Rain Jacket | UK | Ultralight Outdoor Gear