First registration of title if deeds are lost or destroyed

Scootypops

desthemoaner said:

We're currently going through the process of buying a property which, 2 months into the purchase, turned out to be unregistered. The deeds have also been lost. The seller's solicitor applied for adverse possession and on the basis of evidence given by the deceased occupier's executrix, the property has been registered in her name under possessory title.

The vendor's solicitor expedited the matter and its taken about three weeks in total for the register to be updated with the title and tenure. It would take a private citizen without access to expedition much longer than that. 

I doubt you'll know as it'll be the sellers concern, but I very much doubt they were charged £1200 extra for the privilege, which is my real umbrage with the process.

GoogleMeNow

canaldumidi said:

Scootypops said:

canaldumidi said:

Well you could do the 1st registration yourself. You've clearly investigated the process, so.... fill in the forms and send the the LR?

....... if considered an extra, couldn't justify charging more than £400 for the work. Confirmation to me that the other firm are taking the mick.

You need to bear in mind that in completing the relevant application to send to the Land Regisry, the solicitor will have to spend some considerable time (at their hourly rate) getting the relevant information from you. Some twoing and froing, either face to face, by email or letter or phone, establishing the history, drafting and confirming the Statements of truth etc.

Now, in the end, most if not all of this information will come from you, so whether you provide it to the solicitor to document, or you complete the documents yourself, is up to you......

Good advice above for you OP.

First registrations do take considerable time. 

The solicitor is basing their fee on the amount of time they would need to spend on gathering as much information as possible to enable the Land Registry to accept the application.  That means building up a timeline of documents proving that your parents were the rightful owners and that your wife has the authority to sell the property.  The solicitor doesn't know anything about the property, so they will not know at the outset what documentation you have and whether what you have is going to be sufficient, or whether they will have to 'construct' the title from other questionable evidence, together with sworn statements etc.  They have probably worked out an 'average' amount of hours they expect to work on this and quoted their fees on this basis.

The documents have to be submitted to the Land Registry by post - it cannot be done online so this is also time consuming and the Land Registry fee is doubled.  

If Land Registry accepts the application, they will grant Possessory Title since the original deeds have been lost.  You will therefore most likely have to provide an indemnity policy to the buyer (are you intending to use a solicitor for the sale?).  The buyer's solicitor and their lender will have to decide whether or not to accept the Possessory Title with indemnity policy.  They will not be able to upgrade the title to Absolute for 12 years.

Scootypops

GoogleMeNow said:

canaldumidi said:

Scootypops said:

canaldumidi said:

Well you could do the 1st registration yourself. You've clearly investigated the process, so.... fill in the forms and send the the LR?

....... if considered an extra, couldn't justify charging more than £400 for the work. Confirmation to me that the other firm are taking the mick.

You need to bear in mind that in completing the relevant application to send to the Land Regisry, the solicitor will have to spend some considerable time (at their hourly rate) getting the relevant information from you. Some twoing and froing, either face to face, by email or letter or phone, establishing the history, drafting and confirming the Statements of truth etc.

Now, in the end, most if not all of this information will come from you, so whether you provide it to the solicitor to document, or you complete the documents yourself, is up to you......

Good advice above for you OP.

First registrations do take considerable time. 

The solicitor is basing their fee on the amount of time they would need to spend on gathering as much information as possible to enable the Land Registry to accept the application.  That means building up a timeline of documents proving that your parents were the rightful owners and that your wife has the authority to sell the property.  The solicitor doesn't know anything about the property, so they will not know at the outset what documentation you have and whether what you have is going to be sufficient, or whether they will have to 'construct' the title from other questionable evidence, together with sworn statements etc.  They have probably worked out an 'average' amount of hours they expect to work on this and quoted their fees on this basis.

The documents have to be submitted to the Land Registry by post - it cannot be done online so this is also time consuming and the Land Registry fee is doubled.  

If Land Registry accepts the application, they will grant Possessory Title since the original deeds have been lost.  You will therefore most likely have to provide an indemnity policy to the buyer (are you intending to use a solicitor for the sale?).  The buyer's solicitor and their lender will have to decide whether or not to accept the Possessory Title with indemnity policy.  They will not be able to upgrade the title to Absolute for 12 years.

The solicitor does know what documentation we already have (46 year old documents from the original solicitors invoicing the sale prior to completion that names both parents as buyers and the mortgage company), from there I have emails from the original solicitors to state that they dont hold the documents, an email from the lender stating that the mortgage completed in 1996 and they don't hold the documents, land registry searches confirming the property was never registered, email from the writer of teh will to confirm that they don't hold the deeds. With all that known up-front, the solicitor has decided to lump on an additional £1200 to the already agreed conveyancing fee that was very competitive (£800 inc VAT). We stated at the start we didn;t have the deeds.

Why is the land registry fee of £140 doubled? The application fee is clearly stated on the HM Land Registry website, with no stated situations in which the fee would be doubled.I think in this instance it's clear that it will be possessory title only.

My main reason for this thread is to confirm whether £1200 is too much for the work involved? My current impression is that it is.

user1977

Scootypops said:

GoogleMeNow said:

canaldumidi said:

Scootypops said:

canaldumidi said:

Well you could do the 1st registration yourself. You've clearly investigated the process, so.... fill in the forms and send the the LR?

....... if considered an extra, couldn't justify charging more than £400 for the work. Confirmation to me that the other firm are taking the mick.

You need to bear in mind that in completing the relevant application to send to the Land Regisry, the solicitor will have to spend some considerable time (at their hourly rate) getting the relevant information from you. Some twoing and froing, either face to face, by email or letter or phone, establishing the history, drafting and confirming the Statements of truth etc.

Now, in the end, most if not all of this information will come from you, so whether you provide it to the solicitor to document, or you complete the documents yourself, is up to you......

Good advice above for you OP.

First registrations do take considerable time. 

The solicitor is basing their fee on the amount of time they would need to spend on gathering as much information as possible to enable the Land Registry to accept the application.  That means building up a timeline of documents proving that your parents were the rightful owners and that your wife has the authority to sell the property.  The solicitor doesn't know anything about the property, so they will not know at the outset what documentation you have and whether what you have is going to be sufficient, or whether they will have to 'construct' the title from other questionable evidence, together with sworn statements etc.  They have probably worked out an 'average' amount of hours they expect to work on this and quoted their fees on this basis.

The documents have to be submitted to the Land Registry by post - it cannot be done online so this is also time consuming and the Land Registry fee is doubled.  

If Land Registry accepts the application, they will grant Possessory Title since the original deeds have been lost.  You will therefore most likely have to provide an indemnity policy to the buyer (are you intending to use a solicitor for the sale?).  The buyer's solicitor and their lender will have to decide whether or not to accept the Possessory Title with indemnity policy.  They will not be able to upgrade the title to Absolute for 12 years.

Why is the land registry fee of £140 doubled? 

Maybe not quite "double", but there's a higher fee for any applications which aren't made online.

Scootypops

user1977 said:

Scootypops said:

GoogleMeNow said:

canaldumidi said:

Scootypops said:

canaldumidi said:

Well you could do the 1st registration yourself. You've clearly investigated the process, so.... fill in the forms and send the the LR?

....... if considered an extra, couldn't justify charging more than £400 for the work. Confirmation to me that the other firm are taking the mick.

You need to bear in mind that in completing the relevant application to send to the Land Regisry, the solicitor will have to spend some considerable time (at their hourly rate) getting the relevant information from you. Some twoing and froing, either face to face, by email or letter or phone, establishing the history, drafting and confirming the Statements of truth etc.

Now, in the end, most if not all of this information will come from you, so whether you provide it to the solicitor to document, or you complete the documents yourself, is up to you......

Good advice above for you OP.

First registrations do take considerable time. 

The solicitor is basing their fee on the amount of time they would need to spend on gathering as much information as possible to enable the Land Registry to accept the application.  That means building up a timeline of documents proving that your parents were the rightful owners and that your wife has the authority to sell the property.  The solicitor doesn't know anything about the property, so they will not know at the outset what documentation you have and whether what you have is going to be sufficient, or whether they will have to 'construct' the title from other questionable evidence, together with sworn statements etc.  They have probably worked out an 'average' amount of hours they expect to work on this and quoted their fees on this basis.

The documents have to be submitted to the Land Registry by post - it cannot be done online so this is also time consuming and the Land Registry fee is doubled.  

If Land Registry accepts the application, they will grant Possessory Title since the original deeds have been lost.  You will therefore most likely have to provide an indemnity policy to the buyer (are you intending to use a solicitor for the sale?).  The buyer's solicitor and their lender will have to decide whether or not to accept the Possessory Title with indemnity policy.  They will not be able to upgrade the title to Absolute for 12 years.

Why is the land registry fee of £140 doubled? 

Maybe not quite "double", but there's a higher fee for any applications which aren't made online.

How is that? You can't make the application online, there is no other option than a postal application, and the voluntary registration fee for a £107000 house is clearly set at £140. If there were an online application option and you chose postal application, I could understand the difference, but in this case there is only 1 route of application.

user1977

Scootypops said:

user1977 said:

Scootypops said:

GoogleMeNow said:

canaldumidi said:

Scootypops said:

canaldumidi said:

Well you could do the 1st registration yourself. You've clearly investigated the process, so.... fill in the forms and send the the LR?

....... if considered an extra, couldn't justify charging more than £400 for the work. Confirmation to me that the other firm are taking the mick.

You need to bear in mind that in completing the relevant application to send to the Land Regisry, the solicitor will have to spend some considerable time (at their hourly rate) getting the relevant information from you. Some twoing and froing, either face to face, by email or letter or phone, establishing the history, drafting and confirming the Statements of truth etc.

Now, in the end, most if not all of this information will come from you, so whether you provide it to the solicitor to document, or you complete the documents yourself, is up to you......

Good advice above for you OP.

First registrations do take considerable time. 

The solicitor is basing their fee on the amount of time they would need to spend on gathering as much information as possible to enable the Land Registry to accept the application.  That means building up a timeline of documents proving that your parents were the rightful owners and that your wife has the authority to sell the property.  The solicitor doesn't know anything about the property, so they will not know at the outset what documentation you have and whether what you have is going to be sufficient, or whether they will have to 'construct' the title from other questionable evidence, together with sworn statements etc.  They have probably worked out an 'average' amount of hours they expect to work on this and quoted their fees on this basis.

The documents have to be submitted to the Land Registry by post - it cannot be done online so this is also time consuming and the Land Registry fee is doubled.  

If Land Registry accepts the application, they will grant Possessory Title since the original deeds have been lost.  You will therefore most likely have to provide an indemnity policy to the buyer (are you intending to use a solicitor for the sale?).  The buyer's solicitor and their lender will have to decide whether or not to accept the Possessory Title with indemnity policy.  They will not be able to upgrade the title to Absolute for 12 years.

Why is the land registry fee of £140 doubled? 

Maybe not quite "double", but there's a higher fee for any applications which aren't made online.

How is that? You can't make the application online, there is no other option than a postal application, and the voluntary registration fee for a £107000 house is clearly set at £140. If there were an online application option and you chose postal application, I could understand the difference, but in this case there is only 1 route of application.

Yes, it's the same for transfers of part (e.g. buying newbuilds). It's unavoidable - the application involves more work than a straightforward transfer of an already-registered property, so it's not unreasonable that they reflect that in the fee.

GoogleMeNow

user1977 said:

Scootypops said:

GoogleMeNow said:

canaldumidi said:

Scootypops said:

canaldumidi said:

Well you could do the 1st registration yourself. You've clearly investigated the process, so.... fill in the forms and send the the LR?

....... if considered an extra, couldn't justify charging more than £400 for the work. Confirmation to me that the other firm are taking the mick.

You need to bear in mind that in completing the relevant application to send to the Land Regisry, the solicitor will have to spend some considerable time (at their hourly rate) getting the relevant information from you. Some twoing and froing, either face to face, by email or letter or phone, establishing the history, drafting and confirming the Statements of truth etc.

Now, in the end, most if not all of this information will come from you, so whether you provide it to the solicitor to document, or you complete the documents yourself, is up to you......

Good advice above for you OP.

First registrations do take considerable time. 

The solicitor is basing their fee on the amount of time they would need to spend on gathering as much information as possible to enable the Land Registry to accept the application.  That means building up a timeline of documents proving that your parents were the rightful owners and that your wife has the authority to sell the property.  The solicitor doesn't know anything about the property, so they will not know at the outset what documentation you have and whether what you have is going to be sufficient, or whether they will have to 'construct' the title from other questionable evidence, together with sworn statements etc.  They have probably worked out an 'average' amount of hours they expect to work on this and quoted their fees on this basis.

The documents have to be submitted to the Land Registry by post - it cannot be done online so this is also time consuming and the Land Registry fee is doubled.  

If Land Registry accepts the application, they will grant Possessory Title since the original deeds have been lost.  You will therefore most likely have to provide an indemnity policy to the buyer (are you intending to use a solicitor for the sale?).  The buyer's solicitor and their lender will have to decide whether or not to accept the Possessory Title with indemnity policy.  They will not be able to upgrade the title to Absolute for 12 years.

Why is the land registry fee of £140 doubled? 

Maybe not quite "double", but there's a higher fee for any applications which aren't made online.

Solicitors have a business gateway where they submit applications to Land Registry online.  The fee for a registered transfer of whole for a property £100-200k is £30.  If the application is submitted by post, it is £60.  If you are doing a voluntary first registration, without an additional transfer triggering compulsory registration (i.e. a sale), then the fee is £140.  Land Registry do state there is a 25% reduction in their fee for a compulsory registration, so maybe you don't have to pay £140, but you would need to clarify that.

Scootypops

GoogleMeNow said:

Solicitors have a business gateway where they submit applications to Land Registry online.  The fee for a registered transfer of whole for a property £100-200k is £30.  If the application is submitted by post, it is £60.  If you are doing a voluntary first registration, without an additional transfer triggering compulsory registration (i.e. a sale), then the fee is £140.  Land Registry do state there is a 25% reduction in their fee for a compulsory registration, so maybe you don't have to pay £140, but you would need to clarify that.

Thanks for that. Got quotes from a few different solicitors purely for the first registration work and they're coming in at about £500 inclusive of the first registration fee, which says to me that our conveyancing solicitor are looking to totally ream us in quoting £1200 for the same work. Will look into getting out of the conveyancing contract with minimal costs for the minimal work already done and going with one of the others, and not getting reamed for the first registration.

Scootypops

We're going to kick our solicitor (recommended by the estate agent) into touch. They haven't done any billable work yet and ive got a quote of £945 inc VAT from a local solicitors that includes both the conveyancing for the sale and the first registration work. Seems far more reasonable.

babyblade41

You need someone who is knowledgeable of adverse possession as it's not just sending over a few docs.
If LR aren't totally satisfied you may get an OS out and then go to surrounding neighbours for any objections.