How do ordinary people make the switch to electric vehicles ?

motorguy

shinytop said:

WJB1971 said:

I have worked all my life and having done so have got to the point where I own a Volvo XC60 of which I am very fond, it isn't new, it is several years old but it is mine.

However, I accept there is need to go electric and would like to do so.

The nearest comparable vehicle all electric would be the Volvo XC40 but at round the £60k mark there is no way I can afford to make that change. Looking for a second hand SUV I might be able to afford it would be a Kia Soul, and with the best will in the world they are just not comparable vehicles.

The biggest problem then to ordinary people wanting to make the change and to try and be greener, is the cost to us, and because we cannot afford it, we have to accept having a smaller car not of our choice, or carry on polluting.

What about leasing ? I am sorry but if you think any of us earning 20k a year can afford to lease and manage the rest of life's living expenses then think again.

What about grants and such ? yes but we still have to find the rest of the money and most of us don't have it.

So those of us with least will end up driving a polluting car because we cannot afford to do otherwise. We will end up having to pay more and more for doing so, which will make finding the money to change even more impossible. We will be frowned upon for still driving such a car by those who can afford to go green.

Anyone got a solution ?

At the moment, no.  EVs are more expensive.  IMO, to be practical, EVs need to have a real range of 120 miles.  People on £20k p.a. incomes can't afford one of these now.  Hopefully by the time they have no choice, they will be able to.  Going green is expensive.         

As has always been the case when you are an early adapter (and we are still in that phase for everyday motoring)

And who said going green would be cheap?

They are now becoming more mainstream though and you can get say a VW ID.3 for under £30K after discount.  

People buying those new mean more affordable EV used cars down the line.  

People on £20K have pretty much the same options with EV as they do with ICE cars.  You can buy a Leaf for under £6K.  

Username03725

BOWFER said:

Doesn't take much use to rack up £20-£25 a week on petrol/diesel though.
I was going through that doing only 7 miles commuting every day and general errands.

Slight meander, but hopefully this is what the move away from easy energy via ICE to the slightly more considered approach that range anxiety (if it does exist) with battery vehicles should bring about.

7 miles a day commuting is 3½ miles each way. If ever there was a commute that was perfectly suited to doing by bike occasionally (i.e. 2 or 3 times a week, clean clothes in on car days), or getting a cheap eBike and using that instead, this is it. Fair enough if you have a van full of tools or a laptop and all of Years 7 8 & 9's exercise books after marking them, but as a nation we don't always see the solution that's staring us in the face.

shinytop

motorguy said:

shinytop said:

WJB1971 said:

I have worked all my life and having done so have got to the point where I own a Volvo XC60 of which I am very fond, it isn't new, it is several years old but it is mine.

However, I accept there is need to go electric and would like to do so.

The nearest comparable vehicle all electric would be the Volvo XC40 but at round the £60k mark there is no way I can afford to make that change. Looking for a second hand SUV I might be able to afford it would be a Kia Soul, and with the best will in the world they are just not comparable vehicles.

The biggest problem then to ordinary people wanting to make the change and to try and be greener, is the cost to us, and because we cannot afford it, we have to accept having a smaller car not of our choice, or carry on polluting.

What about leasing ? I am sorry but if you think any of us earning 20k a year can afford to lease and manage the rest of life's living expenses then think again.

What about grants and such ? yes but we still have to find the rest of the money and most of us don't have it.

So those of us with least will end up driving a polluting car because we cannot afford to do otherwise. We will end up having to pay more and more for doing so, which will make finding the money to change even more impossible. We will be frowned upon for still driving such a car by those who can afford to go green.

Anyone got a solution ?

At the moment, no.  EVs are more expensive.  IMO, to be practical, EVs need to have a real range of 120 miles.  People on £20k p.a. incomes can't afford one of these now.  Hopefully by the time they have no choice, they will be able to.  Going green is expensive.         

As has always been the case when you are an early adapter (and we are still in that phase for everyday motoring)

And who said going green would be cheap?

They are now becoming more mainstream though and you can get say a VW ID.3 for under £30K after discount.  

People buying those new mean more affordable EV used cars down the line.  

People on £20K have pretty much the same options with EV as they do with ICE cars.  You can buy a Leaf for under £6K.  

No they don't. You can get a nice, practical, reliable ICE car for £6k or less, with lots of choice of sizes, models and types.  Or you can have a 1st gen Leaf with a range of 80 miles.   And a lot of people on low incomes don't have off street parking, even if they could afford to install a charger. I wouldn't call that the same options.  

laidbackgjr

motorguy said:

Grumpy_chap said:

[Deleted User] said:

A Polestar is a bit of a step up from a Mondeo. Closer would be something like a Nissan Leaf, which you can get for £22k brand new.

There's also the MG ZS EV and quite a few others in that category.

I really would not say that a Leaf can be considered as comparable to the Mondeo and nor would I say the Polestar is a step up from a Mondeo.  Remember, actual broker costs to purchase a high-spec Mondeo outright brand new are much the same as the actual broker costs for an Audi A6:

https://www.broadspeed.com/CarView/Ford/Mondeo/49790/EcoBlue_2.0_190PS_Diesel_Vignale_Automatic_5_doors

https://www.broadspeed.com/CarView/Audi/A6/48535/40_TDI_2.0_204PS_Diesel_Sport_Automatic_4_doors

Polestar is a premium brand EV offshot of Volvo.  Not at all comparable.

What about a Hyundai Ioniq?  I linked to one above.  Similarly priced to the Mondy, similar size and spec.

Ioniq is more Focus sized and spec, not Mondeo - biggest issue is lack of range - I can get 700 miles out of tank with my Mondeo - I regularly drive 200 mile non-stop journeys - I need an EV with a range of at least 300 miles to be realistic.

BOWFER

Username03725 said:

BOWFER said:

Doesn't take much use to rack up £20-£25 a week on petrol/diesel though.
I was going through that doing only 7 miles commuting every day and general errands.

Slight meander, but hopefully this is what the move away from easy energy via ICE to the slightly more considered approach that range anxiety (if it does exist) with battery vehicles should bring about.

7 miles a day commuting is 3½ miles each way. If ever there was a commute that was perfectly suited to doing by bike occasionally (i.e. 2 or 3 times a week, clean clothes in on car days), or getting a cheap eBike and using that instead, this is it. Fair enough if you have a van full of tools or a laptop and all of Years 7 8 & 9's exercise books after marking them, but as a nation we don't always see the solution that's staring us in the face.

You're assuming the 3.5 miles route is able to be cycled.
It's not  as half of it is along a bypass.
So I'd have to take a diversion adding a fair bit onto my journey.
And that new route would be life-in-your-hands cycling along very narrow roads.
Funny how people assume cycling is always an option for short distances....

MacPingu1986

BOWFER said:

Username03725 said:

BOWFER said:

Doesn't take much use to rack up £20-£25 a week on petrol/diesel though.
I was going through that doing only 7 miles commuting every day and general errands.

Slight meander, but hopefully this is what the move away from easy energy via ICE to the slightly more considered approach that range anxiety (if it does exist) with battery vehicles should bring about.

7 miles a day commuting is 3½ miles each way. If ever there was a commute that was perfectly suited to doing by bike occasionally (i.e. 2 or 3 times a week, clean clothes in on car days), or getting a cheap eBike and using that instead, this is it. Fair enough if you have a van full of tools or a laptop and all of Years 7 8 & 9's exercise books after marking them, but as a nation we don't always see the solution that's staring us in the face.

You're assuming the 3.5 miles route is able to be cycled.
It's not  as half of it is along a bypass.
So I'd have to take a diversion adding a fair bit onto my journey.
And that new route would be life-in-your-hands cycling along very narrow roads.
Funny how people assume cycling is always an option for short distances....

Username0375 didn't assume every short journey could be cycled (and gave some examples of reasons why it couldn't be).

Unless the bypass is restricted to motor vehicles only it could still be a potential option to cycle depending on road confidence, and re quieter roads, well it depends how long the diversion is... Lets say it doubles the journey to 6 miles - that's still only c25 minutes at an easy pace, or under 20 mins for a fit and experienced rider.

BOWFER

MacPingu1986 said:

BOWFER said:

Username03725 said:

BOWFER said:

Doesn't take much use to rack up £20-£25 a week on petrol/diesel though.
I was going through that doing only 7 miles commuting every day and general errands.

Slight meander, but hopefully this is what the move away from easy energy via ICE to the slightly more considered approach that range anxiety (if it does exist) with battery vehicles should bring about.

7 miles a day commuting is 3½ miles each way. If ever there was a commute that was perfectly suited to doing by bike occasionally (i.e. 2 or 3 times a week, clean clothes in on car days), or getting a cheap eBike and using that instead, this is it. Fair enough if you have a van full of tools or a laptop and all of Years 7 8 & 9's exercise books after marking them, but as a nation we don't always see the solution that's staring us in the face.

You're assuming the 3.5 miles route is able to be cycled.
It's not  as half of it is along a bypass.
So I'd have to take a diversion adding a fair bit onto my journey.
And that new route would be life-in-your-hands cycling along very narrow roads.
Funny how people assume cycling is always an option for short distances....

Username0375 didn't assume every short journey could be cycled (and gave some examples of reasons why it couldn't be).

Unless the bypass is restricted to motor vehicles only it could still be a potential option to cycle depending on road confidence, and re quieter roads, well it depends how long the diversion is... Lets say it doubles the journey to 6 miles - that's still only c25 minutes at an easy pace, or under 20 mins for a fit and experienced rider.

The bypass is motor vehicles only.
As for the longer diversion, I'm not even remotely interested in taking my life in my hands along there, I've seen the utter chaos and frustration cyclists cause on it and I'm not taking part.

Herzlos

laidbackgjr said:

Ioniq is more Focus sized and spec, not Mondeo - biggest issue is lack of range - I can get 700 miles out of tank with my Mondeo - I regularly drive 200 mile non-stop journeys - I need an EV with a range of at least 300 miles to be realistic.

No, you need to re-think your vehicle usage. 200 miles non stop is ~3 hours at best, which is reasonable enough. There are already EV's that can do 200 miles between charges (I think we're up to about 250ish excluding long range variants).

Would you consider taking a break in the middle of the journey if it knocked the fuel costs down by half? If that lunch and coffee was essentially free?

According to honest john https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/ford/mondeo-2015 the best fuel economy from a modern mondeo is 55.2mpg. Assuming a modest 1.30/l for diesel, gives you a cost of about 10.6p/mile. That 200 mile jouney would then cost £21.38.

A Hyundai Ionic does essentially 4miles/kwh. Assuming you charge domestically and not for free, on an average UK electric source at 17.2p/kwh, you're looking at 4.3p/mile. So the same journey would cost you £8.60, saving you £12.78. It's harder to estimate cost properly because if you've got an EV charging at home you're probably on a better tarriff, but you'd likely need to top up at a fast charger which costs more so it really depends on where/when you'd stop and how you could charge at the other end. You could charge 150 miles of range at 17.2p/kwh at home, and then add the last 45 miles of range at 40p/kwh from a service station and recharge at your destination or whatever.

If you're not doing that journey very often, then it's really not that big an inconvenience. If you're doing it a lot, then you'd save a fortune. Assuming you can schedule things properly, then you could just plan for the stop around lunch or whatever.


I do agree though, that the biggest concern with EV ownership is range anxiety, but I believe that it's completely unfounded beyond the most extreme edge cases and even for most of them the cost saving is more than enough to compensate for it.

I get maybe 400 miles from a tank of diesel currently, but I reckon I could drop down to something with a worst case range of 100 miles for pretty much all my usage beyond the occasional road trip where I can stop at a rapid charger as required.

Herzlos

BOWFER said:

Funny how people assume cycling is always an option for short distances....

They don't. S/he was raising it as an option and it's one well worth considering where safe and suitable. It's good exercise, reduces cost and congestion, and in many places it can be quicker than driving too. I drive from my house to the train station here in about 10 minutes, allowing for parking, but I can do it in little over 5 on a bike as I can take a few shortcuts and can take it with me on the train.

If I lived within maybe 10 miles of work (instead of 40) I'd be cycling there every day it was possible to do so, it'd save me a fortune and I wouldn't be so overweight!

Lots of places have reasonable cycling infrastructure in terms of separate paths and so on where it's a viable option.

BOWFER

Herzlos said:

laidbackgjr said:

Ioniq is more Focus sized and spec, not Mondeo - biggest issue is lack of range - I can get 700 miles out of tank with my Mondeo - I regularly drive 200 mile non-stop journeys - I need an EV with a range of at least 300 miles to be realistic.

No, you need to re-think your vehicle usage. 200 miles non stop is ~3 hours at best, which is reasonable enough. There are already EV's that can do 200 miles between charges (I think we're up to about 250ish excluding long range variants).

Would you consider taking a break in the middle of the journey if it knocked the fuel costs down by half? If that lunch and coffee was essentially free?

According to honest john https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/ford/mondeo-2015 the best fuel economy from a modern mondeo is 55.2mpg. Assuming a modest 1.30/l for diesel, gives you a cost of about 10.6p/mile. That 200 mile jouney would then cost £21.38.

A Hyundai Ionic does essentially 4miles/kwh. Assuming you charge domestically and not for free, on an average UK electric source at 17.2p/kwh, you're looking at 4.3p/mile. So the same journey would cost you £8.60, saving you £12.78. It's harder to estimate cost properly because if you've got an EV charging at home you're probably on a better tarriff, but you'd likely need to top up at a fast charger which costs more so it really depends on where/when you'd stop and how you could charge at the other end. You could charge 150 miles of range at 17.2p/kwh at home, and then add the last 45 miles of range at 40p/kwh from a service station and recharge at your destination or whatever.

If you're not doing that journey very often, then it's really not that big an inconvenience. If you're doing it a lot, then you'd save a fortune. Assuming you can schedule things properly, then you could just plan for the stop around lunch or whatever.


I do agree though, that the biggest concern with EV ownership is range anxiety, but I believe that it's completely unfounded beyond the most extreme edge cases and even for most of them the cost saving is more than enough to compensate for it.

I get maybe 400 miles from a tank of diesel currently, but I reckon I could drop down to something with a worst case range of 100 miles for pretty much all my usage beyond the occasional road trip where I can stop at a rapid charger as required.

Re-thinking usage is something I was chatting to a London cabbie about last week.
for some weird reason, their electric (PHEV) black cabs are only 28KWh batteries (!!!), which I found incredibly weird when they clearly have the space to fit much larger batteries.
Anyway, he was explaining a benefit is that he now takes about 3 breaks per day, where he gets out and walks around while it's charging - a very good thing.
Whereas his previous work life was a 12 hour shift sat on his backside with no breaks.
Still can't get over the 28KHW battery thing though, he was very jealous of  my 40KWH and when I mentioned the Leaf can come with 62KWH his mind was blown.