Paying care home fee's .

Pennylane

Where has the OP gone? 

A “friend” of mine is an only child and persuaded her Mum to sell her nice bungalow and give her and her 2 adult daughters most of the proceeds. that was about 20 years ago.  She was then able to get a local housing association property at a very cheap rent which her daughter assured her would mean less maintenance, not paying a gardener etc.    Her logic was that when her Mum died she would get her money anyway so she may as well offload some while she was alive.  I will say that her Mother idolises her as she is her only child and she went along with it.

Now the Mum is over 90 and went into care a few months ago but of course was forced to go where social services sent her and it has turned out to be very poor indeed.  She is now running round trying to get her mother moved to a better home but obviously SS will only pay approx £550 a week and anything good is in the region of £900+ a week.  

Personally I don’t know how she can live with herself doing that but she thought she was being clever disposing of her Mum’s assets so her girls could have deposits for their own houses and she could buy herself a new caravan, have her house done up and many expensive holidays over the years. 

wilfred30

alfmurph said:

My dad has arund £50k which i have taken out of his name and put in mine to hopefully shield it away  .
Any advice would be helpful please .

I think you'll find that's called theft.

Stubod

...best check to see if dad has any gold fillings you can dig out while you are at it?

alfmurph

I am suitably chastised .
Where did the £50k come from .
Well ten years ago my mum developed motor neurone disease - what a death , I would not wish that on anybody and she was paid £70 or so a week for 3 or 4 years to cover her having a more comfortable lifestyle with caring help etc .
My sister and myself took care of everything without costing her a penny so the cash mounted up .
My dad has been getting the same allowance plus pays no council tax so once again the cash has increased .

We considered and still are moving dad in with one of us but according to his psychiatric nurse this never works as even with the best of intentions people can last about a month before giving up .
Imagine cleaning ecremin from your chairs and cushions , putting nappies on , wiping his privates etc . Some of you have no idea .

My sister who works in a care home refuses to allow her dad into one . It is the pits . Especially council homes . People sitting around all day needing underwear changed , very basic food , no stimulation .

But your points have been taken onboard . I never had any intentio of spending the money just in case the council came calling but just thought it might work .

The house i realise cannot be saved from costs if the worst happens .

I am not a monster - i was asking for advice .

alfmurph

According to google there are legitimate reasons to transfer money for gifts .
1 - Stopping family disputes .
2 - Wanting the recipient to enjoy the gift whilst you can for opening a business or purchase of a home .
3 - recognising the support of an individual who has provided support and thank them for their strong contribution .
4 - Avoid delays on estate when paying for funeral costs etc .

we are not rich . we are talking about a house worth £120k .

Andd what about this 6 month notional capital rule .

elsien

alfmurph said:

I am suitably chastised .
Where did the £50k come from .
Well ten years ago my mum developed motor neurone disease - what a death , I would not wish that on anybody and she was paid £70 or so a week for 3 or 4 years to cover her having a more comfortable lifestyle with caring help etc .
My sister and myself took care of everything without costing her a penny so the cash mounted up .
My dad has been getting the same allowance plus pays no council tax so once again the cash has increased .

We considered and still are moving dad in with one of us but according to his psychiatric nurse this never works as even with the best of intentions people can last about a month before giving up .
Imagine cleaning ecremin from your chairs and cushions , putting nappies on , wiping his privates etc . Some of you have no idea .

My sister who works in a care home refuses to allow her dad into one . It is the pits . Especially council homes . People sitting around all day needing underwear changed , very basic food , no stimulation .

But your points have been taken onboard . I never had any intentio of spending the money just in case the council came calling but just thought it might work .

The house i realise cannot be saved from costs if the worst happens .

I am not a monster - i was asking for advice .

Some of us do know how hard it is.

But if he can’t stay at home, and living with one of you isn’t feasible (and for most people, it really isn’t) then it has to be a care home. Which is why using his money to get him a better quality care home is exactly what is in his best interests and what his money should be used for.

Where I am, council homes don’t exist any more. There is a choice of private homes with a variety of prices. Expensive doesn’t always mean good, but money gives him choices. If they don’t do community activities then he can pay some one to take him out, for example.

To be  honest, I am struggling to equate your sister’s acknowledgment that some basic homes don’t offer a lot, with trying to save his house for yourselves so that he doesn’t have any other option for anything better?

You do need to put that 50K back in his name as well. The power of attorney is about doing what is right for him, not what the family think is best for them. 

elsien

alfmurph said:

According to google there are legitimate reasons to transfer money for gifts .
1 - Stopping family disputes .
2 - Wanting the recipient to enjoy the gift whilst you can for opening a business or purchase of a home .
3 - recognising the support of an individual who has provided support and thank them for their strong contribution .
4 - Avoid delays on estate when paying for funeral costs etc .

we are not rich . we are talking about a house worth £120k .

Andd what about this 6 month notional capital rule .

That’s to do with gifts when the person knows what they’re doing. It is different to deliberate deprivation of assets which is what you are trying to to.

If the power of attorney has kicked in then you do what it specifies, and otherwise what is best for dad. You cannot just take it upon yourselves to give large sums to whoever you see fit. If you haven’t read this guidance, I suggest you do so:

https://www.harpermacleod.co.uk/hm-insights/2019/october/powers-of-attorney-when-can-an-attorney-make-gifts-from-the-estate-of-an-adult-with-incapacity/


And this one:


https://techzone.abrdn.com/anon/public/iht-est-plan/gifts-power-of-attorney

Particularly the bit that says: 

Foremost in their thinking should be what's in the best interests of the donor, and not the interests of the recipient. If they try to justify a transaction solely on the basis that it may save the donor IHT, it's unlikely to be seen as being in the donor’s best interest. There should be another motive. Obviously, the size of the donor’s estate and any future costs of lifestyle and care will also influence decisions.

Brie

@alfmurph
personally I took your post to mean that you might not have thought things through rather than you were being a monster. 

If your dad's situation is very recent I know that it will be a lot to process and very distressing as well.  I'm currently going through something similar with my mom but she's thousands of miles away.  Meanwhile myself and my OH are my MiL's live in carers - believe me we have wiped that backside!!!  

With MiL I have been granted 3rd party authority to run one of her bank accounts.  The OH has been named joint on another 2 accounts.  This means that we can manage her money on her behalf.  That includes paying for the additional in home care that she requires.  Personally if you have your dad's cash in an account that is solely for that and keep account of it with the knowledge of your sister I can't imagine anyone truly accusing you of theft.  I am very careful that any money I move from MIL's accounts can be matched to an expenditure for her benefit - so buy her new underwear on my credit card, transfer the exact same amount as if she was buying it herself.

And yes there are reasons that someone might transfer money but that doesn't mean it's not still considered when calculating what that person needs to pay for care costs.  If it's in your dad's best interests to live with one of you then it would be completely appropriate that he pays his way - food costs, extra heating etc.  Those would be completely acceptable but again - I would suggest documenting it so there is no confusion down the line.

Best of luck with it.

wilfred30

alfmurph said:

According to google there are legitimate reasons to transfer money for gifts .
1 - Stopping family disputes .
2 - Wanting the recipient to enjoy the gift whilst you can for opening a business or purchase of a home .
3 - recognising the support of an individual who has provided support and thank them for their strong contribution .
4 - Avoid delays on estate when paying for funeral costs etc .

we are not rich . we are talking about a house worth £120k .

Andd what about this 6 month notional capital rule .

None of those 4 reasons apply in your case though.  You have deliberately taken your dad's £50k out of his name and put it into yours with the sole purpose of (in your own words) shielding it away (from potential care home costs).

It is also totally irrelevant how your dad came to have that £50k.

74jax

The majority of people commenting, do have an idea. That's why we are commenting. On this forum if you don't know the answer to one post, you just move on to the next post where you probably do.

I commented way back, I think the first reply, giving a very similar explanation as to how we did it and kept the house. 

In relation to gifts, every year since I could remember both mam and dad gifted everyone in the immediate family 3k every year. The moment poa kicked in we stopped. Despite social services going through the last ten years or so and advising we could continue these gifts as it was very clear it had happened for a long time. The only exception was when her grandson was called to the bar and she had said from his first day at uni, she wanted to buy his wig.  Even then I had letters /cards from her to her nephew saying how proud she was and looked forward to the day he was Called. I was scrupulous with receipts etc. 
You don't say if gifting was regular with your family?