Armtrac Stennack Car Park St.Ives

Needhelp45

Many thanks for providing all the support and advice on this board.

I’ve just been reading all the Newbie advice, but still have some questions…sorry! 

We received a NTK from Armtrac,13 days after parking in Stennack Car Park in St. Ives on 27th Sept while on holiday.  

We paid for 2 hours, returned within that time, the ticket was properly displayed on the dashboard before we left and I’m sure when we returned.  No PCN was left on the car and the car was changed 2 days later so no chance of the ticket lying about for evidence. We do have a credit card statement showing the date and amount, but not the time.

The NTK only shows the car arriving and leaving after 1hr 44 minutes and only states ‘ parked with no valid parking session/permit in accordance with the terms set out in the signage’ no other details about the claimed breach of T& Cs, or evidence of the T&Cs have been provided.  We can’t go back Cornwall to gain evidence of the signage. 

It’s possible the claimed ‘breach’ is not paying for a ticket immediately, but the car is large, the parking spaces tight and the driver drove around the car park and in and out of two spaces before parking in one that provided sufficient space.  The driver went to the ticket machine and came back to get a credit card then back to pay. I’m sure all this took under 10 minutes though and besides we were not actually ‘parked’ for most of it but driving around.  

-  Is the above something I should put in the appeal, or leave it out if they haven’t stated this is the claimed ‘breach’? 

Why should we not name the driver if the parking company can still pursue the keeper? ( I did read the post on this but still confused! )

- Ive been trying to post the appeal on the Armtrac website appeals page, but it gives an error message ‘sorry we cannot find this ticket’.  I’ve double checked and tried the car registration in different formats and the same message appears.   Should I just send the appeal by registered post? And mention the website failure in the letter? 

Can Armtrac take us to court if they haven’t provided any evidence of any infringement? Do many cases actually get to court? 

Should we raise it with our MP now or when they reject the appeal? 

Many thanks !

Redx

Use the template appeal in blue text , adding a sentence to say that a ticket was purchased and a credit card statement proves it and will be used in any appeal or court claim

POFA protects a keeper , it does not protect the driver , so it's not showing your hand at the beginning , it's for the claimant to prove their case , which includes keeper liability ( why would you assist a known SC*mmer. ? )

Do not use any such thing as registered post , which is actually , signed for , or , special delivery

Use ordinary first class post obtaining a free certificate of posting from the post office counter staff , as proof of posting

Yes they can , yes they do , Civil court

Needhelp45

Thank you so much. 

 So we don’t provide a copy of credit card statement now? Just confirm we have one? 

Good point about assisting a scammer!

Redx

Needhelp45 said:

Thank you so much. 

 So we don’t provide a copy of credit card statement now? Just confirm we have one? 

Good point about assisting a scammer!

You can if you wish , just redact the other information , especially the personal information , but leave the name and address and date showing , plus the bank name , plus the last 4 digits of the account number , plus the actual transaction

As for assisting them , how many police or lawyer programmes have you seen when they know that the accused is guilty , but their lawyer tells them to say , "no comment" ?

They could be guilty as sin , but won't assist the prosecution ( in America , it's pleading the 5th )

Coupon-mad

Yes you do provide that, The NEWBIES thread advice about appeals stage already says to attach any evidence when submitting the template appeal, and you can add a line or two as suggested, as long as you don't say who parked.

None of this is any different than the resource of the NEWBIES thread already tells you. 

Needhelp45

Coupon-mad said:

Yes you do provide that, The NEWBIES thread advice about appeals stage already says to attach any evidence when submitting the template appeal, and you can add a line or two as suggested, as long as you don't say who parked.

None of this is any different than the resource of the NEWBIES thread already tells you. 

Apologies, I missed that part

D_P_Dance

Have you complained to your MP?

Needhelp45

Thanks for all the support provided so far. 

I submitted the appeal with evidence of of credit card payment.   Armtrac have just responded that the VRM was entered incorrectly (apparently only the 2nd half was input). But Armtrac  have easily been able to identify the vehicle and payment for that parking session so it seems unreasonable to uphold the notice on the grounds of a technicality. 

They go on to state;
 
‘no valid ticket was covering the vehicle remaining in the car park on private land.
‘The signage at the site informs ‘You must display a valid pay & display ticket within the windscreen or be in possession of a cashless payment session for the entire parking period.' 'You must enter your full and correct vehicle registration number when you make payment.'

The vehicle was ‘Parked with no valid parking session / permit.’

I’m unable to check the signage as we live 5 hours away.  They state that they have photographic evidence we are parked near signage - which they haven’t provided and I don’t believe they have, but it’s a small car park so we wouldn’t have been far away and it’s probably displayed right by the payment machine. 

I’ve read the advice not to bother appeal to IAS, but I would like to if there’s any chance to avoid all the aggravation of going to court.  I’ve seen that they did drop a case on appeal last year, where they had appealed with a lot of evidence/argument against unclear signage. Forum members commented that maybe they are only going for ‘low hanging fruit’ with the change in legislation and the move to one appeals service, the IAS were trying to appear more impartial. 
Is there anything to lose via doing this? 

Can anyone advise on what we should include other than the evidence of payment and the argument that Armtrac could identify the vehicle ? 

Is it still worth writing to my MP and trading standards.  Should I write to the DVLA on the grounds that if they could identify the payment they obtained the keepers data illegally?  Should I request a SAR now? 

Many thanks

Redx

What does the IPC CoP and guidance state about identified keying errors ?

Needhelp45

D_P_Dance said:

Have you complained to your MP?

Not yet, I was wondering whether its worth doing this? Does it ever lead to cases being dropped. I know it was recommended to raise awareness, but the legislation is changing now. 

Le_Kirk

Needhelp45 said:

I’m unable to check the signage as we live 5 hours away.  They state that they have photographic evidence we are parked near signage - which they haven’t provided and I don’t believe they have, but it’s a small car park so we wouldn’t have been far away and it’s probably displayed right by the payment machine. 

This is such a well-known bear trap car park that if you search other threads about the same place, another poster might have put up a picture.  Also you could send a couple of PMs to posters who have been caught here to ask them if they have piccy poos.