Heat pumps vs Gas boilers

TELLIT01

IWI would be a difficult to install in our house.  Picture rails and high skirtings in all rooms, which I assume would need to be removed and either replaced with new imitations of the real thing or the originals refurbished as I doubt they would get it all off without damage. Internal window ledges to be extended....  Certainly not a straightforward exercise.

Doozergirl

TELLIT01 said:

IWI would be a difficult to install in our house.  Picture rails and high skirtings in all rooms, which I assume would need to be removed and either replaced with new imitations of the real thing or the originals refurbished as I doubt they would get it all off without damage. Internal window ledges to be extended....  Certainly not a straightforward exercise.

No one suggests it is! It all costs money, but the aesthetic of doing it inside is certainly better than doing it outside.  

There's time.  But it really
does need consideration.  The alternative might just be very high heating bills in the future. Best to think of things like this when already doing something.  

plumb1_2

Another_Level said:

Myson do a fanned radiator ULOW-E2.  SmitsEco do a fanned hydronic radiator.   There around and have heard and seen the myson in use. Really impressive 

Sure other manufactures will pop up 

I used to fit a lot of myson fanned rads 30 yrs ago, especially in conservatory . But the seems to go out of fashion, same with kick space heaters.

Teapot55

Doozergirl said:

Teapot55 said:

@Doozergirl  Could you please advise on what sort of insulation to plan for for a 120-yr old terraced house, standard brick construction with cavity walls? Inside or outside, what material etc?

We had the (dreaded) grey polystyrene beads pumped into the cavities a few years back. The house is definitely warmer. (We use a dehumidifier now & then in the winter months & no longer have mould). Thanks. 

Just solid insulation.  

External insulation is going to be less leaky in terms of airtightness and is much faster and less intrusive work, but the house loses character.  

Internal solid insulation - of the kingspan variety, or similar, will save the look of the house, but is disruptive work indoors.  If the plaster is dodgy anyway, then it's a more obvious choice as it's just the additional cost of the insulation over the plastering.  

One of the better thing about being in a terrace is that there is a lot less work to do than in other houses!  

There's so many things to consider with regard to older houses, damp, ventilation etc, it's a bit of a nightmare.  I can see more claims happening against companies who have no idea about older buildings or maintaining equilibrium with regard to ventilation.  

The trickle vents that people don't want to put in (and that some people on here say don't matter) are only going to become more important when a proper retrofit isn't financially viable.  

Thanks for this. It’s going to help. 

On the subject of trickle vents I’m pleased to say that the two replacement dg windows we’ve recently had installed and the new dg back door all have trickle vents. We rarely get steamed up windows now, especially as we leave them open all the time. 

Doozergirl

Teapot55 said:

Doozergirl said:

Teapot55 said:

@Doozergirl  Could you please advise on what sort of insulation to plan for for a 120-yr old terraced house, standard brick construction with cavity walls? Inside or outside, what material etc?

We had the (dreaded) grey polystyrene beads pumped into the cavities a few years back. The house is definitely warmer. (We use a dehumidifier now & then in the winter months & no longer have mould). Thanks. 

Just solid insulation.  

External insulation is going to be less leaky in terms of airtightness and is much faster and less intrusive work, but the house loses character.  

Internal solid insulation - of the kingspan variety, or similar, will save the look of the house, but is disruptive work indoors.  If the plaster is dodgy anyway, then it's a more obvious choice as it's just the additional cost of the insulation over the plastering.  

One of the better thing about being in a terrace is that there is a lot less work to do than in other houses!  

There's so many things to consider with regard to older houses, damp, ventilation etc, it's a bit of a nightmare.  I can see more claims happening against companies who have no idea about older buildings or maintaining equilibrium with regard to ventilation.  

The trickle vents that people don't want to put in (and that some people on here say don't matter) are only going to become more important when a proper retrofit isn't financially viable.  

Thanks for this. It’s going to help. 

On the subject of trickle vents I’m pleased to say that the two replacement dg windows we’ve recently had installed and the new dg back door all have trickle vents. We rarely get steamed up windows now, especially as we leave them open all the time. 

Gold star for you ! 🌟 

Rodders53

Niv said:

I have oil heating and my house is over 400 years old. I cant see that ASHP is a remote goer for me, apart from the insulation issue I do not have gas so presumably do not qualify for the grant.

Of course you will qualify.
Oil burners are to be banned as well as LPG gas and Natural gas boilers, on the same timescale, probably. 

Big issue for HMG is upgrading the electricity supply to homes... 
Winter use will be HPs running at max to keep up and that will be the new base load. It will possibly (probably?) exceed the cable and sub-station transformer ratings... 
Current 'diversity' allowances that have worked for decades will be blown out of the water when enough switch.

THAT's an item Govt should be spending money on. Not grants to those who were planning to install HPs anyway, nor (RH) incentives to fiddle the true costs of install and running them.
IMHO, of course.

Globally we need the bigger players / carbon emitters to change tactic and... I'll say no more.

Section62

Rodders53 said:

Big issue for HMG is upgrading the electricity supply to homes... 
Winter use will be HPs running at max to keep up and that will be the new base load. It will possibly (probably?) exceed the cable and sub-station transformer ratings... 
Current 'diversity' allowances that have worked for decades will be blown out of the water when enough switch.

THAT's an item Govt should be spending money on. Not grants to those who were planning to install HPs anyway, nor (RH) incentives to fiddle the true costs of install and running them.
IMHO, of course.

The current draw of a single-phase motor is typically much lower when running than at start-up.  There could be issues if lots of people have heat pumps which all start at exactly the same time. But less so if they are all running constantly.

Some manufacturers claim their 'soft-start' technology overcomes the issue of starting currents.  I think by the time the load on the local grid becomes an issue we will be having our electricity use controlled by 'smart' equipment linked to the 'smart' grid - e.g. your heat pump will need to get 'permission' to start which will only be given (by the local grid) if sufficient capacity is available for it.

Another alternative may be for more domestic consumers to be switched to three-phase supplies, something that is already a lot more common in countries other than the UK.  This is also something likely to be driven by more people wanting rapid EV charging, and potentially vehicle/home batteries being used as storage capacity for grid support.

Mass upgrades of the physical grid infrastructure are unlikely IMV.... the whole concept of 'smart' metering and 'smart' grids is to manage consumption by end users so less generation and distribution capacity is required.  It is that which will address issues with the decades-old diversity principles.

TELLIT01

The Government wanted smart meters installed in all houses by the end of 2020, that has been moved to the end of 2024.  In comparison to other changes that should have been a simple task yet it failed miserably.  Why should any faith be put in the date (plucked out of thin air) for banning gas boiler installation, petrol cars or any other the other initiatives?

Ganga

How long before every house has a large windmill generating electricity in their garden or attached to their chimney .
I have all ways wondered why countries with underground heating sources ( Hawaii ,Italy , etc ) do not build super sized generator plants and get the free heat to produce the power ,after the build cost- free electricity.

Section62

TELLIT01 said:

The Government wanted smart meters installed in all houses by the end of 2020, that has been moved to the end of 2024.  In comparison to other changes that should have been a simple task yet it failed miserably.  Why should any faith be put in the date (plucked out of thin air) for banning gas boiler installation, petrol cars or any other the other initiatives?

Because smart meters were effectively a brand-new technology that can only be installed with the cooperation of the customer.  The benefits of having a smart meter are marginal for most people, and in some cases there will be a disbenefit. There have been some very good reasons for customers to refuse to cooperate in having their meter changed.

I don't think the smart meter roll out was a simple task. It was (and remains) an incredibly complex project.

It would have been simpler if primary legislation had empowered DNOs to give consumers 7 days notice that their meter will be changed, that entry could be forced if nobody was at home, and that the roll-out was tackled on a street-by-street basis rather than ad-hoc.

I don't think the government of the day would have got that legislation through Parliament.


Banning gas boilers and petrol/diesel cars is far simpler.  Primary legislation can be made to prohibit the sale of the item.  In the current climate, Parliament is not going to block legislation to ban fossil fuel burning appliances/vehicles.  The onus is then on the user to find an alternative that suits their needs - the help provided by government(s) to manage the change is just an incentive to do it sooner rather than later.