Heat pumps vs Gas boilers

Another_Level

Myson do a fanned radiator ULOW-E2.  SmitsEco do a fanned hydronic radiator.   There around and have heard and seen the myson in use. Really impressive 

Sure other manufactures will pop up 

daveyjp

rob7475 said:

Maybe we need to look at how we distribute the heat created from our gas boilers more efficiently to minimise consumption. For example, I have a plinth heater in my kitchen which runs from the central heating but is on it's own zone for termperature control. The plinth heater is essentially a very small radiator with a fan to convect the heat into the room. This heats my very large kitchen much faster than any of my radiators can heat the other rooms. Maybe incorporating some silent fans into smaller radiators could be a way forward.

Nothing new in that idea.  My grandfather was an electrical engineer and in the 1970s fitted a microbore CH system with fan assisted hot water radiators.

Each room had a single individually controlled radiator no more than about a metre wide and 0.3m high, but they kicked the heat out.

The boiler was changed over the years, but the rad system was only removed about 10 years ago when the property was remodelled and under floor heating fitted.  

Teapot55

@Doozergirl  Could you please advise on what sort of insulation to plan for for a 120-yr old terraced house, standard brick construction with cavity walls? Inside or outside, what material etc?

We had the (dreaded) grey polystyrene beads pumped into the cavities a few years back. The house is definitely warmer. (We use a dehumidifier now & then in the winter months & no longer have mould). Thanks. 

rob7475

daveyjp said:

rob7475 said:

Maybe we need to look at how we distribute the heat created from our gas boilers more efficiently to minimise consumption. For example, I have a plinth heater in my kitchen which runs from the central heating but is on it's own zone for termperature control. The plinth heater is essentially a very small radiator with a fan to convect the heat into the room. This heats my very large kitchen much faster than any of my radiators can heat the other rooms. Maybe incorporating some silent fans into smaller radiators could be a way forward.

Nothing new in that idea.  My grandfather was an electrical engineer and in the 1970s fitted a microbore CH system with fan assisted hot water radiators.

Each room had a single individually controlled radiator no more than about a metre wide and 0.3m high, but they kicked the heat out.

The boiler was changed over the years, but the rad system was only removed about 10 years ago when the property was remodelled and under floor heating fitted.  

Exactly. The technology is there but we just need to utilise it better. I see there are some radiators available with built in fans but to be honest, they look old fashioned and quite ugly. If I was an engineer at a radiator manufacturer, I'd be looking to create a modern looking radiator that can incorporate a silent fan to better distribute the heat. A really clever engineer would figure our how to utilise the flow of water through the radiator to generate the electricity to run that fan (think of a water wheel). This gets rid of the need for the radiator to require an electrical connection and a socket nearby.

My plinth heater has around a 1kw output. This heats my kitchen in half the time my radiator heats my living room. My living room is half the size of my kitchen and the standard radiator outputs 2.4kw. If I put plinth heaters in all my rooms, I reckon I could cut 40% off my gas usage.

I seriously think we need to look at being smarter with the technologies we already have which will benefit the majority. Investing in new technologies which will only be useable for the minority is never going to fix our problems.

Section62

rob7475 said:

They didn't take off then, so what's changed?

The 'climate crisis'.

Also, because burning our way through the North Sea gas reserves " 'cos its cleaner than coal" has left us reliant on international gas supplies which are controlled by (or in the sights of) countries we can't really call 'benign'.

In future, burning gas instead of coal will be viewed in the same way as encouraging people to buy diesel cars rather than petrol.

So we desperately need to reduce our reliance on gas, particularly burning it in built-up areas where the local pollution is deemed to be responsible for excess deaths, including children.

No more cheap gas.

That may flip the economics of heating by electric vs gas 180 degrees.  Heat pumps then offer a more efficient means of achieving energy output than direct electrical heating.

Doozergirl

...which brings on to the fact that we should be producing more of our electricity via renewables.  And not resisting planning permissions for things like wind farms.   We're an island surrounded by sea and something like 96% of our land is green.  We can do better than this.  

Doozergirl

Teapot55 said:

@Doozergirl  Could you please advise on what sort of insulation to plan for for a 120-yr old terraced house, standard brick construction with cavity walls? Inside or outside, what material etc?

We had the (dreaded) grey polystyrene beads pumped into the cavities a few years back. The house is definitely warmer. (We use a dehumidifier now & then in the winter months & no longer have mould). Thanks. 

Just solid insulation.  

External insulation is going to be less leaky in terms of airtightness and is much faster and less intrusive work, but the house loses character.  

Internal solid insulation - of the kingspan variety, or similar, will save the look of the house, but is disruptive work indoors.  If the plaster is dodgy anyway, then it's a more obvious choice as it's just the additional cost of the insulation over the plastering.  

One of the better thing about being in a terrace is that there is a lot less work to do than in other houses!  

There's so many things to consider with regard to older houses, damp, ventilation etc, it's a bit of a nightmare.  I can see more claims happening against companies who have no idea about older buildings or maintaining equilibrium with regard to ventilation.  

The trickle vents that people don't want to put in (and that some people on here say don't matter) are only going to become more important when a proper retrofit isn't financially viable.  

FreeBear

Doozergirl said:  External insulation is going to be less leaky in terms of airtightness and is much faster and less intrusive work, but the house loses character. 

With EWI, attention to the finishing detail is very important. e.g. At the roof line - Is there enough overhang. Around the doors/windows - Can the sills be extended ? Downpipes & soil/waste pipes - Can they be moved out to allow for insulation behind ?

IWI also has issues particularly where a staircase is attached to an external wall. On the plus side, it can be added one room at a time as each one is renovated. This helps to spread the cost but prolongs the disruption.

Gavin83

Is IWI necessary or could even potentially cause issues on houses with filled cavity walls? Renovating soonish on a mid 90's house with filled cavity walls with dot and dab plasterboard over the top and considering my options.

Doozergirl

Gavin83 said:

Is IWI necessary or could even potentially cause issues on houses with filled cavity walls? Renovating soonish on a mid 90's house with filled cavity walls with dot and dab plasterboard over the top and considering my options.

A thermal imaging camera on your house would probably help you decide by locating where your house leaks heat, but you can't have too much insulation and the beads and the battens can slump.  

There's no reason why internal wall insulation should ever be a problem in a house that has a 100mm cavity.   It wouldn't be the root cause of the problem if there was one.