Pensions envy. Are we heading for financially comfortable but socially uncomfortable retirements?

Ganga

Terron said:

Ganga said:

Ibrahim5 said:

I find the intergenerational stuff a bit scary. I never even thought about whether my grandparents or parents should have retired when they did or where their income came from. I am sure my kids will never stop telling me how lucky I was to retire early.

I think things have changed now ,i know my grandparents had little but in their time the man worked whilst his wife brought up the 4 kids ,my parents were the same ,dad worked ,mam brought up 4 kids , our tea was always on the table , holidays if any were in a caravan in the lakes ,happy days at the time.

In some places for some people that was true. But for most people everyone who could worked.
My father's mother was working in a mill when she got married to a fellow mill worker, who then left home for the best part of three years (called up during WW1). Later she started working from home as a dressmaker.
My other grandmother was in service before getting married. She stayed at home after getting married, but home was a small welsh hill farm, so her husband did too, and nether were idle.
Researching my family tree almost all adults worked and so did the older children.

My mother did work before she was married ,it was called war work ,i think that was were she met my dad before he went into Europe ending up in Germany .

Eldi_Dos

Workerdrone said:

sammyjammy said:

Workerdrone said:

I'm not buy nature a jealous person. I'm happy to hear of others successes. When I learned that the euromillions £187m had been won by someone in France my first reaction was "I hope they sit down this morning, have a lovely breakfast and then spend the day making exciting plans" :-)

My first thought was I hope it doesn't ruin their life, no jealousy but I find it obscene that one person wins that amount of money, it should have a cap, imagine how many lives would be transformed if 187 people won a million.

Ah, my plan for it was 1.) Pay off the mortgage 2.) Go on a nice holiday to think about what to do 3.) Do a lot of charitable work with it.

and

4.) Keep making regular large very public donations to the Tory Party in the name of my mate who is a staunch labour supporter. We always wind each other up :-)

Seeing as this is a money saving forum, on your point 4 is there any tax advantages to donating this way and does anyone have any knowledge of it been done before

Ganga

Workerdrone said:

Bobziz said:

Workerdrone said:

Bobziz said:

Sewing division and fear is clearly useful for some. Be great if people dug into the evidence or perhaps lack of it before making broad generalisations. 

We'll it's a bit difficult to find actual evidence given how people keep their financial matters quite close to their chest (Apart from on forums like this), hence the purpose of the discussion. As an earlier poster put, its quite possible that the bitter complainers are just the minority who you find on comments sections. Personally I am worried about how my sister in law will take it. She's always been a wasteful spender, my brother in law works, she doesn't although there's no actual reason for it. Unfortunately he has close to zero pension so they will be in a bit of a pickle. She has a tendency to make family gatherings very awkward when she's in a mood.

Agree, it is difficult but that didn't stop you writing "It seems the majority of Britains are still content to bury their heads regarding retirement savings whilst at the same time splurging on the latest phones, subscriptions, frothy coffees, foreign holidays and eating out.". 

We all like to have opinions, myself included, I just wonder whether the world would be a better place if we spent a little more time looking at the evidence before we made them, particularly if they result in us viewing others negatively. 

Jealousy and resentment exists, but I'm conscious that we still seem to be far from having a society where all have equal opportunities. As a white middle class male, I feel privileged in that my opportunities have been fairly easy to come by. I've still had to make the most of them, but they were there in the first place. Others are not so lucky.

So, saving is easier for some than others, that seems clear. However, I suspect that there are also those that for various reasons do have the means to save and build a reasonable pension but do not. Martin is trying to deal with the ignorance aspect of this with the push to improve education. As parents and grandparents we can help here too. 

Once people have the knowledge and ability to save then in theory they should. However, I suspect that there will still be those that don't, and they may blame others for this as you say. I'm not sure there's a lot we can do about this other than maybe not fear them and reflect that their jealousy and animosity towards others may result from their own unhappiness. Hopefully they're few and far between !

I suppose the only concrete evidence for consumption over savings could come from the latest statistics on average household debt. £3838 unsecured debt per uk adult and £2133 average credit car debt per uk adult. Although covid has allowed a lot to repay balances. Averages credit card debt down 17.8% in the last year.

I completely agree on your point of improved education. It staggers me that basic money management is not taught in school. I suppose there is still the assumption that this is a parents job. Trouble is (Anecdotally once again) I have less faith in parents to teach solid financial management than schools do. If I drive out in the morning it seems every child from 10+ is walking with a high end iPhone (12 etc) in hand on the way to school. Now either 1.) These parents have bought their child a £700+ phone outright. 2.) They are paying for it on a contract at circa £50 a month 3.) The children saved up the £700 and bought it themselves. In the case of the last one, bravo, they had a lot more earning potential than I did at 11 (Adjusted for inflation), but it  would be a good lesson in the value of goods.

I was brought up with the mantra "If something is given to you for nothing, its worth nothing to you", by that I mean you value the things you worked to earn more than those given to you without effort. I wouldn't trust my two kids with £700 phone. They are too careless. But if they want one there's plenty of jobs to do and I will support them budgeting for it.

I also agree with equality of opportunity (But not equality of outcome which is so often what is actually pushed for). I've never really had to give a thought to being a white male, my grandparents were miners so certainly not privileged. my parents are both boomers and earned their ticket to grammar school. I grew up as a gen X and my parents started their own business when I was 10 so from that point onwards I suppose my life became gradually more privileged as a result of that. I'm probably just scraping lower middle class now.

But growing up I never gave a thought to add colour into that mix, chiefly because I grew up in a former mining town in rural northumberland and frankly the only black face I saw in my youth was Floella Benjamin. I accept it was probably a different experience for those who grew up further down south or in larger cities. It's a bit difficult to discriminate when everyone you interact with looks the same as you.

I recall my dad being asked in the late 90's why he didn't have any black employees. The simple answer was there were no black applicants. It's just a fact of life for me, I'm a permanent homeworker. I don't tend to engage face to face with people. I spoke to a colleague for 10 years before meeting him and realising he was black.

Must come from a hard up family - most go to school in mummies 4x4 

hugheskevi

sammyjammy said:

hugheskevi said:

It is interesting to think what typical retirement patterns might look like in the future, given all the various changes

• Due to the legacy pension in public sector, a much higher demand for partial retirement from age 60 onwards. Due to ancient rules about abatement (can't earn more than full-time salary as a result of pension plus salary) there will be a lot more demand for working 2, 3 or 4 day-weeks for those in their 60s.

This is interesting, I'm a Civil servant that will be able to take that pension at 60, you'd be mad not to given it doesn't increase if you defer it.  Will abatement still apply even though the pension we will be paying into is a different one to that we have taken?  It does seem harsh that you ability to pay contributions into the average salary scheme is limited by that rule.  

Abatement will still apply. A strange policy, under which you can have your pension in full if you retire, are unemployed, go roaming the world, or even just work for any other employer. 

You can still pay into the average salary scheme without limitation, you just can't take your NPA 60 pension in full and continue to work full-time.

I suppose the only concrete evidence for consumption over savings could come from the latest statistics on average household debt. £3838 unsecured debt per uk adult and £2133 average credit car debt per uk adult. Although covid has allowed a lot to repay balances. Averages credit card debt down 17.8% in the last year.

I don't think average unsecured debt proves anything - my household has had about £60,000 of credit card debt at most points over the last 10 years, all fee-free and interest free and being used to invest.

Workerdrone

Eldi_Dos said:

Workerdrone said:

sammyjammy said:

Workerdrone said:

I'm not buy nature a jealous person. I'm happy to hear of others successes. When I learned that the euromillions £187m had been won by someone in France my first reaction was "I hope they sit down this morning, have a lovely breakfast and then spend the day making exciting plans" :-)

My first thought was I hope it doesn't ruin their life, no jealousy but I find it obscene that one person wins that amount of money, it should have a cap, imagine how many lives would be transformed if 187 people won a million.

Ah, my plan for it was 1.) Pay off the mortgage 2.) Go on a nice holiday to think about what to do 3.) Do a lot of charitable work with it.

and

4.) Keep making regular large very public donations to the Tory Party in the name of my mate who is a staunch labour supporter. We always wind each other up :-)

Seeing as this is a money saving forum, on your point 4 is there any tax advantages to donating this way and does anyone have any knowledge of it been done before

No idea, it was a tongue in cheek suggestion, but I'd imagine there probably are

Workerdrone

Ganga said:

Workerdrone said:

Bobziz said:

Workerdrone said:

Bobziz said:

Sewing division and fear is clearly useful for some. Be great if people dug into the evidence or perhaps lack of it before making broad generalisations. 

We'll it's a bit difficult to find actual evidence given how people keep their financial matters quite close to their chest (Apart from on forums like this), hence the purpose of the discussion. As an earlier poster put, its quite possible that the bitter complainers are just the minority who you find on comments sections. Personally I am worried about how my sister in law will take it. She's always been a wasteful spender, my brother in law works, she doesn't although there's no actual reason for it. Unfortunately he has close to zero pension so they will be in a bit of a pickle. She has a tendency to make family gatherings very awkward when she's in a mood.

Agree, it is difficult but that didn't stop you writing "It seems the majority of Britains are still content to bury their heads regarding retirement savings whilst at the same time splurging on the latest phones, subscriptions, frothy coffees, foreign holidays and eating out.". 

We all like to have opinions, myself included, I just wonder whether the world would be a better place if we spent a little more time looking at the evidence before we made them, particularly if they result in us viewing others negatively. 

Jealousy and resentment exists, but I'm conscious that we still seem to be far from having a society where all have equal opportunities. As a white middle class male, I feel privileged in that my opportunities have been fairly easy to come by. I've still had to make the most of them, but they were there in the first place. Others are not so lucky.

So, saving is easier for some than others, that seems clear. However, I suspect that there are also those that for various reasons do have the means to save and build a reasonable pension but do not. Martin is trying to deal with the ignorance aspect of this with the push to improve education. As parents and grandparents we can help here too. 

Once people have the knowledge and ability to save then in theory they should. However, I suspect that there will still be those that don't, and they may blame others for this as you say. I'm not sure there's a lot we can do about this other than maybe not fear them and reflect that their jealousy and animosity towards others may result from their own unhappiness. Hopefully they're few and far between !

I suppose the only concrete evidence for consumption over savings could come from the latest statistics on average household debt. £3838 unsecured debt per uk adult and £2133 average credit car debt per uk adult. Although covid has allowed a lot to repay balances. Averages credit card debt down 17.8% in the last year.

I completely agree on your point of improved education. It staggers me that basic money management is not taught in school. I suppose there is still the assumption that this is a parents job. Trouble is (Anecdotally once again) I have less faith in parents to teach solid financial management than schools do. If I drive out in the morning it seems every child from 10+ is walking with a high end iPhone (12 etc) in hand on the way to school. Now either 1.) These parents have bought their child a £700+ phone outright. 2.) They are paying for it on a contract at circa £50 a month 3.) The children saved up the £700 and bought it themselves. In the case of the last one, bravo, they had a lot more earning potential than I did at 11 (Adjusted for inflation), but it  would be a good lesson in the value of goods.

I was brought up with the mantra "If something is given to you for nothing, its worth nothing to you", by that I mean you value the things you worked to earn more than those given to you without effort. I wouldn't trust my two kids with £700 phone. They are too careless. But if they want one there's plenty of jobs to do and I will support them budgeting for it.

I also agree with equality of opportunity (But not equality of outcome which is so often what is actually pushed for). I've never really had to give a thought to being a white male, my grandparents were miners so certainly not privileged. my parents are both boomers and earned their ticket to grammar school. I grew up as a gen X and my parents started their own business when I was 10 so from that point onwards I suppose my life became gradually more privileged as a result of that. I'm probably just scraping lower middle class now.

But growing up I never gave a thought to add colour into that mix, chiefly because I grew up in a former mining town in rural northumberland and frankly the only black face I saw in my youth was Floella Benjamin. I accept it was probably a different experience for those who grew up further down south or in larger cities. It's a bit difficult to discriminate when everyone you interact with looks the same as you.

I recall my dad being asked in the late 90's why he didn't have any black employees. The simple answer was there were no black applicants. It's just a fact of life for me, I'm a permanent homeworker. I don't tend to engage face to face with people. I spoke to a colleague for 10 years before meeting him and realising he was black.

Must come from a hard up family - most go to school in mummies 4x4 

The can't get parked on the road to the school so they drop them off in the estate and they all walk down across the bridge. Chaos come the morning!

saucer

c'est_moi said:

I have had to listen to a much younger colleague whinge about her circumstances and imply that it was all the fault of my generation that she would not have the luxury of retiring at the age of 51 as I had just done

I did, however, point out that as I grew up in the Thatcher years I had a childhood of austerity in a household where no one worked full time. I had bought my first house when interest rates were eye wateringly high - and was forced to sell the same house for less than I paid for it seven years later.

High unemployment and high interest rates yes, but opportunity was there and property was affordable either to buy or rent.  I think there is a lot that the younger generations will have easier, but a lot that is much less attainable to them, and even with saving a lot of their disposable income, there is little prospect of them being able to retire in their early 50s.  

c'est_moi

I was very lucky to get my job in 1991. I trained as a teacher and got the one and only job that I was qualified for in my area. Unemployment rates were still high and professional jobs few and far between in the region. The house we bought was affordable because of the state it was in. We had to spend a lot of money fitting a new boiler, radiators, kitchen and bathroom to make it habitable - all done gradually over 7 years as and when we had the money to do so. It broke my heart to sell it at a loss, but had no choice as we had started a family by then.

There was no chance of getting a council house. They had been flogged off in the previous decade. The were some private rentals, but most were in students lets.

I am not saying that youngsters have it easy. I do worry about my daughter who is finding it very difficult to get a mortgage - and in fact will need a hand up from bank of mum and dad to be able to get together enough of a deposit. However, I will not stand there and be lectured by a 30 something colleague who knows nothing of the financial struggles I have had and who willfully chooses to do nothing to plan for their own financial future.

Workerdrone

c'est_moi said:

I was very lucky to get my job in 1991. I trained as a teacher and got the one and only job that I was qualified for in my area. Unemployment rates were still high and professional jobs few and far between in the region. The house we bought was affordable because of the state it was in. We had to spend a lot of money fitting a new boiler, radiators, kitchen and bathroom to make it habitable - all done gradually over 7 years as and when we had the money to do so. It broke my heart to sell it at a loss, but had no choice as we had started a family by then.

There was no chance of getting a council house. They had been flogged off in the previous decade. The were some private rentals, but most were in students lets.

I am not saying that youngsters have it easy. I do worry about my daughter who is finding it very difficult to get a mortgage - and in fact will need a hand up from bank of mum and dad to be able to get together enough of a deposit. However, I will not stand there and be lectured by a 30 something colleague who knows nothing of the financial struggles I have had and who willfully chooses to do nothing to plan for their own financial future.

Thankfully there not all like that. A mate of mine just turned 30, hell of a worker, doesn't complain, got a good head on his shoulders, lovely parents. Got married 4 years ago, bought their first house, an absolute tip, put in all the hours god sent, had it looking like a palace, then flipped it for a larger one. Now looking to start a family. I wish there were more like him.

sammyjammy

hugheskevi said:

sammyjammy said:

hugheskevi said:

It is interesting to think what typical retirement patterns might look like in the future, given all the various changes

• Due to the legacy pension in public sector, a much higher demand for partial retirement from age 60 onwards. Due to ancient rules about abatement (can't earn more than full-time salary as a result of pension plus salary) there will be a lot more demand for working 2, 3 or 4 day-weeks for those in their 60s.

This is interesting, I'm a Civil servant that will be able to take that pension at 60, you'd be mad not to given it doesn't increase if you defer it.  Will abatement still apply even though the pension we will be paying into is a different one to that we have taken?  It does seem harsh that you ability to pay contributions into the average salary scheme is limited by that rule.  

Abatement will still apply. A strange policy, under which you can have your pension in full if you retire, are unemployed, go roaming the world, or even just work for any other employer. 

You can still pay into the average salary scheme without limitation, you just can't take your NPA 60 pension in full and continue to work full-time.

Except you can't because those 7 years between 60 and 67 will only count as 3.5 years (or less).  I can see that it makes some sense when it was Classic but seems a bit unfair in the current circumstances.  Saying that no brainer for me anyway to take it at 60 but as this thread proves not everyone will have the choice.