Pensions envy. Are we heading for financially comfortable but socially uncomfortable retirements?

Albermarle

 She has a tendency to make family gatherings very awkward when she's in a mood.

Better not to get out the gold plated dinner service next time she comes round 

steampowered

Silvertabby said:

Not as daft as that sounds.  I'm not saying that this was actually Labour party policy, just that before the 2010 election a female Labour MP spouted her solution to the 'problem of single pensioners rattling round in big houses, when families were crammed into 2 bed flats'.  No, she didn't mean pensioners in council houses (ie, Labour voters) she meant owner occupiers.

Her 'solution' was to raise the council tax to an unaffordable level then offer the pensioner an 'appropriate' assisted living flat' for 'free' in return for allowing the house to be used as social housing.  

Why do you immediately call out the gender of this person? Are you trying to suggest that women are less capable than men?

Furthermore, there are politicians of all parties - including Conservative - who quite rightly raise the problem which exists in this country of pensioners living in 5 and 6 bed houses, while there is a dramatic shortage of homes for young families to move into. Fixing that would go a long way towards fixing the housing crisis. There are a number of solutions to this (one option suggested by some Conservative MPs was to remove stamp duty for people who downsize into smaller properties, freeing up larger properties for families) so let's not kid ourselves that this isn't a problem.

Applying additional council tax to under-occupied property is in fact already current Conservative government policy. Many councils already charge double council tax on empty or second properties.

Bobziz

Workerdrone said:

Bobziz said:

Sewing division and fear is clearly useful for some. Be great if people dug into the evidence or perhaps lack of it before making broad generalisations. 

We'll it's a bit difficult to find actual evidence given how people keep their financial matters quite close to their chest (Apart from on forums like this), hence the purpose of the discussion. As an earlier poster put, its quite possible that the bitter complainers are just the minority who you find on comments sections. Personally I am worried about how my sister in law will take it. She's always been a wasteful spender, my brother in law works, she doesn't although there's no actual reason for it. Unfortunately he has close to zero pension so they will be in a bit of a pickle. She has a tendency to make family gatherings very awkward when she's in a mood.

Agree, it is difficult but that didn't stop you writing "It seems the majority of Britains are still content to bury their heads regarding retirement savings whilst at the same time splurging on the latest phones, subscriptions, frothy coffees, foreign holidays and eating out.". 

We all like to have opinions, myself included, I just wonder whether the world would be a better place if we spent a little more time looking at the evidence before we made them, particularly if they result in us viewing others negatively. 

Jealousy and resentment exists, but I'm conscious that we still seem to be far from having a society where all have equal opportunities. As a white middle class male, I feel privileged in that my opportunities have been fairly easy to come by. I've still had to make the most of them, but they were there in the first place. Others are not so lucky.

So, saving is easier for some than others, that seems clear. However, I suspect that there are also those that for various reasons do have the means to save and build a reasonable pension but do not. Martin is trying to deal with the ignorance aspect of this with the push to improve education. As parents and grandparents we can help here too. 

Once people have the knowledge and ability to save then in theory they should. However, I suspect that there will still be those that don't, and they may blame others for this as you say. I'm not sure there's a lot we can do about this other than maybe not fear them and reflect that their jealousy and animosity towards others may result from their own unhappiness. Hopefully they're few and far between !

Workerdrone

steampowered said:

Silvertabby said:

Not as daft as that sounds.  I'm not saying that this was actually Labour party policy, just that before the 2010 election a female Labour MP spouted her solution to the 'problem of single pensioners rattling round in big houses, when families were crammed into 2 bed flats'.  No, she didn't mean pensioners in council houses (ie, Labour voters) she meant owner occupiers.

Her 'solution' was to raise the council tax to an unaffordable level then offer the pensioner an 'appropriate' assisted living flat' for 'free' in return for allowing the house to be used as social housing.  

Why do you immediately call out the gender of this person? Are you trying to suggest that women are less capable than men?

Furthermore, there are politicians of all parties - including Conservative - who quite rightly raise the problem which exists in this country of pensioners living in 5 and 6 bed houses, while there is a dramatic shortage of homes for young families to move into. Fixing that would go a long way towards fixing the housing crisis. There are a number of solutions to this (one option suggested by some Conservative MPs was to remove stamp duty for people who downsize into smaller properties, freeing up larger properties for families) so let's not kid ourselves that this isn't a problem.

Applying additional council tax to under-occupied property is in fact already current Conservative government policy. Many councils already charge double council tax on empty or second properties.

I'm sure the poster didn't mean to suggest anything by it. Probably more a case of they couldn't remember who said it but remembered it was a female labour MP. I just had a quick search and I couldn't find who said it either.

Eldi_Dos

Sir Alex Ferguson early in his tenure at Man U was getting bad press and it was bothering him,he mentioned this to Sir Matt Busby who asked "why read them".It's advice I have followed about social media and my occasional read of HYS after a news article have convinced me the advice has stood the test of time. Sir Alex did not to bad concentrating on his goal.

Silvertabby

Workerdrone said:

steampowered said:

Silvertabby said:

Not as daft as that sounds.  I'm not saying that this was actually Labour party policy, just that before the 2010 election a female Labour MP spouted her solution to the 'problem of single pensioners rattling round in big houses, when families were crammed into 2 bed flats'.  No, she didn't mean pensioners in council houses (ie, Labour voters) she meant owner occupiers.

Her 'solution' was to raise the council tax to an unaffordable level then offer the pensioner an 'appropriate' assisted living flat' for 'free' in return for allowing the house to be used as social housing.  

Why do you immediately call out the gender of this person? Are you trying to suggest that women are less capable than men?

Furthermore, there are politicians of all parties - including Conservative - who quite rightly raise the problem which exists in this country of pensioners living in 5 and 6 bed houses, while there is a dramatic shortage of homes for young families to move into. Fixing that would go a long way towards fixing the housing crisis. There are a number of solutions to this (one option suggested by some Conservative MPs was to remove stamp duty for people who downsize into smaller properties, freeing up larger properties for families) so let's not kid ourselves that this isn't a problem.

Applying additional council tax to under-occupied property is in fact already current Conservative government policy. Many councils already charge double council tax on empty or second properties.

I'm sure the poster didn't mean to suggest anything by it. Probably more a case of they couldn't remember who said it but remembered it was a female labour MP. I just had a quick search and I couldn't find who said it either.

In a nutshell.  (I'm also female, by the way!) Probably not on record, because it wasn't official.... but can't help wondering what could have happened if Labour had won?

The Tory idea of removing stamp duty for people who downsize, thereby leaving larger properties for families to BUY isn't the same thing at all.

Workerdrone

Bobziz said:

Workerdrone said:

Bobziz said:

Sewing division and fear is clearly useful for some. Be great if people dug into the evidence or perhaps lack of it before making broad generalisations. 

We'll it's a bit difficult to find actual evidence given how people keep their financial matters quite close to their chest (Apart from on forums like this), hence the purpose of the discussion. As an earlier poster put, its quite possible that the bitter complainers are just the minority who you find on comments sections. Personally I am worried about how my sister in law will take it. She's always been a wasteful spender, my brother in law works, she doesn't although there's no actual reason for it. Unfortunately he has close to zero pension so they will be in a bit of a pickle. She has a tendency to make family gatherings very awkward when she's in a mood.

Agree, it is difficult but that didn't stop you writing "It seems the majority of Britains are still content to bury their heads regarding retirement savings whilst at the same time splurging on the latest phones, subscriptions, frothy coffees, foreign holidays and eating out.". 

We all like to have opinions, myself included, I just wonder whether the world would be a better place if we spent a little more time looking at the evidence before we made them, particularly if they result in us viewing others negatively. 

Jealousy and resentment exists, but I'm conscious that we still seem to be far from having a society where all have equal opportunities. As a white middle class male, I feel privileged in that my opportunities have been fairly easy to come by. I've still had to make the most of them, but they were there in the first place. Others are not so lucky.

So, saving is easier for some than others, that seems clear. However, I suspect that there are also those that for various reasons do have the means to save and build a reasonable pension but do not. Martin is trying to deal with the ignorance aspect of this with the push to improve education. As parents and grandparents we can help here too. 

Once people have the knowledge and ability to save then in theory they should. However, I suspect that there will still be those that don't, and they may blame others for this as you say. I'm not sure there's a lot we can do about this other than maybe not fear them and reflect that their jealousy and animosity towards others may result from their own unhappiness. Hopefully they're few and far between !

I suppose the only concrete evidence for consumption over savings could come from the latest statistics on average household debt. £3838 unsecured debt per uk adult and £2133 average credit car debt per uk adult. Although covid has allowed a lot to repay balances. Averages credit card debt down 17.8% in the last year.

I completely agree on your point of improved education. It staggers me that basic money management is not taught in school. I suppose there is still the assumption that this is a parents job. Trouble is (Anecdotally once again) I have less faith in parents to teach solid financial management than schools do. If I drive out in the morning it seems every child from 10+ is walking with a high end iPhone (12 etc) in hand on the way to school. Now either 1.) These parents have bought their child a £700+ phone outright. 2.) They are paying for it on a contract at circa £50 a month 3.) The children saved up the £700 and bought it themselves. In the case of the last one, bravo, they had a lot more earning potential than I did at 11 (Adjusted for inflation), but it  would be a good lesson in the value of goods.

I was brought up with the mantra "If something is given to you for nothing, its worth nothing to you", by that I mean you value the things you worked to earn more than those given to you without effort. I wouldn't trust my two kids with £700 phone. They are too careless. But if they want one there's plenty of jobs to do and I will support them budgeting for it.

I also agree with equality of opportunity (But not equality of outcome which is so often what is actually pushed for). I've never really had to give a thought to being a white male, my grandparents were miners so certainly not privileged. my parents are both boomers and earned their ticket to grammar school. I grew up as a gen X and my parents started their own business when I was 10 so from that point onwards I suppose my life became gradually more privileged as a result of that. I'm probably just scraping lower middle class now.

But growing up I never gave a thought to add colour into that mix, chiefly because I grew up in a former mining town in rural northumberland and frankly the only black face I saw in my youth was Floella Benjamin. I accept it was probably a different experience for those who grew up further down south or in larger cities. It's a bit difficult to discriminate when everyone you interact with looks the same as you.

I recall my dad being asked in the late 90's why he didn't have any black employees. The simple answer was there were no black applicants. It's just a fact of life for me, I'm a permanent homeworker. I don't tend to engage face to face with people. I spoke to a colleague for 10 years before meeting him and realising he was black.

jim8888

I'd admit to increasing pension envy because one of the things I'm finding difficult is having to manage my own DC pot. I have a DB pension where the only thing I have to worry about is when to take it. With the DC pot, however, I worry constantly about how best to manage the money, how best to withdraw the funds, how much of the tax free pot I should take, and when should I take it, have I got it invested properly, what if (and when) the market drops thirty percent or more, how much I should hold in cash, or bonds, or gold, should I employ an IFA or an accountant to help me, what about inheritance, the LTA, the changing budget rules, how long will I actually live... the list is almost endless with no easy answers. I never really thought about this until the day came that I had to start crystallising funds and living off the money, and can now quite clearly see why annuity funds were actually quite a good idea if the pensions industry and government had helped manage them properly.

Workerdrone

Silvertabby said:

Workerdrone said:

steampowered said:

Silvertabby said:

Not as daft as that sounds.  I'm not saying that this was actually Labour party policy, just that before the 2010 election a female Labour MP spouted her solution to the 'problem of single pensioners rattling round in big houses, when families were crammed into 2 bed flats'.  No, she didn't mean pensioners in council houses (ie, Labour voters) she meant owner occupiers.

Her 'solution' was to raise the council tax to an unaffordable level then offer the pensioner an 'appropriate' assisted living flat' for 'free' in return for allowing the house to be used as social housing.  

Why do you immediately call out the gender of this person? Are you trying to suggest that women are less capable than men?

Furthermore, there are politicians of all parties - including Conservative - who quite rightly raise the problem which exists in this country of pensioners living in 5 and 6 bed houses, while there is a dramatic shortage of homes for young families to move into. Fixing that would go a long way towards fixing the housing crisis. There are a number of solutions to this (one option suggested by some Conservative MPs was to remove stamp duty for people who downsize into smaller properties, freeing up larger properties for families) so let's not kid ourselves that this isn't a problem.

Applying additional council tax to under-occupied property is in fact already current Conservative government policy. Many councils already charge double council tax on empty or second properties.

I'm sure the poster didn't mean to suggest anything by it. Probably more a case of they couldn't remember who said it but remembered it was a female labour MP. I just had a quick search and I couldn't find who said it either.

In a nutshell.  (I'm also female, by the way!) Probably not on record, because it wasn't official.... but can't help wondering what could have happened if Labour had won?

The Tory idea of removing stamp duty for people who downsize, thereby leaving larger properties for families to BUY isn't the same thing at all.

If I'd told you back in 2019 that by 2020 the whole country would be under totalitarian rule, it would be illegal to visit your own parents, Christmas would be cancelled police would knock at your door if they suspected you were having a gathering, there would be huge queues at every supermarket, basic staples like flour, pasta, rice and toilet roll would be unavailable, most of the country were dependent on state handouts, petrol forecourts would have run dry, taxes were rising and protestors were blocking motorways, you'd have gone straight out to ladbrokes to put £100 on Corbyn winning the general election :-)

Thrugelmir

Workerdrone said:

For me and probably quite a few on here pension saving is almost a hobby. I set a target date and amount and I get a kick out of finding ways to put extra away or when I see my pot grow.

Been an exceptional period of stock market returns. Have you repositioned your portfolio to protect the gains made?  The markets aren't going to remain benign indefinately.