Clocked Car

Grumpy_chap

Out of interest, what history was provided with the car supplied as 3yo 44k miles?

If there was no history, what is the difference in value between the car at 3yo 44k miles no history versus the same car at 3yo 102k miles FMBSH?

jimjames

scrappy_returns said:

A car with 44 k is going to be in a different condition to one that's done 102k regardless of age. Are the seats or steering wheel worn? 34000 miles a year is a fair chunk, especially during a pandemic.

Not necessarily. My car lost 100k miles after I sold it and was in excellent condition, you'd never have known the mileage was higher. From the comments the buyer made when they bought the car in hindsight it was clear what they were looking out for.

Manxman_in_exile

This is simple and straightforward, surely?

If the car was advertised at 44k mileage but has actually done >100k, then it simply is not as described and the OP has already done everything he needs to do* to inform the dealer that he is exercising his short term right to reject.

Consumer Rights Act 2015 (legislation.gov.uk)  and  Consumer Rights Act 2015 (legislation.gov.uk)

The dealer can't just say "Nothing to do with me mate - not my problem" because it is the dealer's problem.

If the dealer proves intransigent, the OP will have the same remedy (rejection and full refund**) against the finance company, regardless of what their broker might think.  The OP needs to quote the above two sections of the Consumer Rights Act to them.  They may need to prepare to take action against both if neither the dealer nor the finance company will cough up.  (Unfortunately if the OP needs to sue for the full £29k it's over the small claims limit, isn't it?)


*By this I mean the OP has informed the dealer that he is exercising his statutory right to reject the car because it is not as described, has stopped using it and either returned it or made it available for collection - see s20 in the link above for the details).

**It's open to the OP to negotiate a partial refund and keep the car - if they want to.

[EDIT:  Just realised I put in two links to s11 of the Act.  One of them should be a link to s20 here - Consumer Rights Act 2015 (legislation.gov.uk) ]

Jenni_D

If the finance also prove intransigent regarding S75 then the OP can raise a FOS complaint prior to (or as well as) commencing court action.

As asked previously, what's the price difference between a 44k no service version and a 102k full (near enough?) MB service version? If the OP is willing to keep the car then they could negotiate for the difference - and if this is <10k then they could raise a court claim for that and it would be in the small claims track.  

Grumpy_chap

Manxman_in_exile said:

This is simple and straightforward, surely?

If the car was advertised at 44k mileage but has actually done >100k, then it simply is not as described and the OP has already done everything he needs to do* to inform the dealer that he is exercising his short term right to reject.

Consumer Rights Act 2015 (legislation.gov.uk)  and  Consumer Rights Act 2015 (legislation.gov.uk)

The dealer can't just say "Nothing to do with me mate - not my problem" because it is the dealer's problem.

If the dealer proves intransigent, the OP will have the same remedy (rejection and full refund**) against the finance company, regardless of what their broker might think.  The OP needs to quote the above two sections of the Consumer Rights Act to them.  They may need to prepare to take action against both if neither the dealer nor the finance company will cough up.  (Unfortunately if the OP needs to sue for the full £29k it's over the small claims limit, isn't it?)


*By this I mean the OP has informed the dealer that he is exercising his statutory right to reject the car because it is not as described, has stopped using it and either returned it or made it available for collection - see s20 in the link above for the details).

**It's open to the OP to negotiate a partial refund and keep the car - if they want to.

Not necessarily that simple as it must depend on who was in charge of the vehicle when the unrecorded mileage adjustment took place.

If that adjustment from 102k miles to 44k miles happened while the car was in the care of the selling Dealer, then I think we can surmise that the selling Dealer will not care too much for CRA short term right to reject.

If the adjustment was before the car came into the selling Dealer's care, then the ease of enforcing the CRA short term right to reject will vary dependant upon the type of Dealer.  Easier at a a franchise (of any brand), or a national chain with reputation to uphold, sliding down to nigh-on-impossible at a dodgy back street trader who cares little about tomorrow because they won't be trading on that site / name tomorrow.

Manxman_in_exile

Grumpy_chap said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

This is simple and straightforward, surely?

If the car was advertised at 44k mileage but has actually done >100k, then it simply is not as described and the OP has already done everything he needs to do* to inform the dealer that he is exercising his short term right to reject.

Consumer Rights Act 2015 (legislation.gov.uk)  and  Consumer Rights Act 2015 (legislation.gov.uk)

The dealer can't just say "Nothing to do with me mate - not my problem" because it is the dealer's problem.

If the dealer proves intransigent, the OP will have the same remedy (rejection and full refund**) against the finance company, regardless of what their broker might think.  The OP needs to quote the above two sections of the Consumer Rights Act to them.  They may need to prepare to take action against both if neither the dealer nor the finance company will cough up.  (Unfortunately if the OP needs to sue for the full £29k it's over the small claims limit, isn't it?)


*By this I mean the OP has informed the dealer that he is exercising his statutory right to reject the car because it is not as described, has stopped using it and either returned it or made it available for collection - see s20 in the link above for the details).

**It's open to the OP to negotiate a partial refund and keep the car - if they want to.

Not necessarily that simple as it must depend on who was in charge of the vehicle when the unrecorded mileage adjustment took place.

...

Of course it's that simple - why do you think it isn't? 

It doesn't matter who has done the "clocking" or whether the dealer was aware of it.  If the car is "not as described" (are you suggesting it is as described?) then s11 of the Act I cited earlier gives the OP the legal right to reject the car for a full refund.  So far as I'm aware, the offending item doesn't need to be knowingly misdescribed to allow rejection - just misdescribed.

If the dealer doesn't play ball the OP has the same remedy against the finance company as they do against the dealer, and if the Finance company is reluctant to cough up, the FOS can, as Jenni_D has indicated, put them right.  (That's exactly what s75 of the Consumer Credit Act is there for).

As long as what the OP has told us is accurate, they're legally entitled to reject the car for a full refund.  And, TBH, I'd be surprised if the finance company broker doesn't get back to the OP and simply agree.

(NB - just realised in my earlier post I inadvertantly included two links to s11 of the Act.  One of them should have been s20, here  Consumer Rights Act 2015 (legislation.gov.uk) )

[Edit:  And I suppose it might not be in the long-term business interests of the dealer - whether in this business or a future one - to be responsible for the finance company having to cough up £30k]

Herzlos

The mileage discrepancy must have shown on the HPI or MOT history, so the dealer should have known it was off when they bought the car, therefore it's their problem. No dealer buys a car without doing an HPI because they don't want to be stuck with a write off.

If the car is in otherwise good condition and you don't mind the mileage, then you can always offer for the dealer to give you a refund of the difference in value, rather than returning the whole car.

k3lvc

Herzlos said:

The mileage discrepancy must have shown on the HPI or MOT history, so the dealer should have known it was off when they bought the car, therefore it's their problem. No dealer buys a car without doing an HPI because they don't want to be stuck with a write off.

If the car is in otherwise good condition and you don't mind the mileage, then you can always offer for the dealer to give you a refund of the difference in value, rather than returning the whole car.

But at under 3yo it wouldn't have had an MOT - this is one of the anomalies that things clocked before first MOT can be clocked with little long-term risk

Herzlos

k3lvc said:

Herzlos said:

The mileage discrepancy must have shown on the HPI or MOT history, so the dealer should have known it was off when they bought the car, therefore it's their problem. No dealer buys a car without doing an HPI because they don't want to be stuck with a write off.

If the car is in otherwise good condition and you don't mind the mileage, then you can always offer for the dealer to give you a refund of the difference in value, rather than returning the whole car.

But at under 3yo it wouldn't have had an MOT - this is one of the anomalies that things clocked before first MOT can be clocked with little long-term risk

Good point. Would the mileage discrepancy actually turn up on an HPI?

k3lvc

Herzlos said:

k3lvc said:

Herzlos said:

The mileage discrepancy must have shown on the HPI or MOT history, so the dealer should have known it was off when they bought the car, therefore it's their problem. No dealer buys a car without doing an HPI because they don't want to be stuck with a write off.

If the car is in otherwise good condition and you don't mind the mileage, then you can always offer for the dealer to give you a refund of the difference in value, rather than returning the whole car.

But at under 3yo it wouldn't have had an MOT - this is one of the anomalies that things clocked before first MOT can be clocked with little long-term risk

Good point. Would the mileage discrepancy actually turn up on an HPI?

Only if it's changed hands at a higher mileage (and unlikely it did)

Scenario : Airport chauffeur buys 9 month old ex-demo fully loaded Mercedes at reasonable price with 10k miles, runs it 24/7 and puts another 90k on it in 2 years having it serviced either off-grid or with false mileages in book then winds back to 30k miles before selling just under 3yrs (or putting a fresh MOT on before selling)