Dismissal and reference

mahoney

Dr_Crypto said:

I’m no longer surprised at the moralising and holier than thou attitude of posters in these forums, although it remains disappointing. 

Most people tell lies. However, the way that some in here react it is like the person is on the same level as a sex offender! 

Lots of ways to approach this. You could get an agreement with the previous employee to provide the reference in exchange for dropping the ET claim. You could ask former managers if they would be prepared to provide it “in a personal capacity” or you could see who the new firm will accept a reference from - sometimes they don’t say and you can use former colleagues 

Thank you very much

Jillanddy

Most people tell lies.

Well that makes it ok then. But just because you tell lies - after all, you must know what you are talking about - doesn't mean that others do, doesn't make it right, and doesn't make your "solutions" result in never getting found out. These days, it is just so easy to find out pretty much anything. So getting others to lie for you - "asking former managers if they would be prepared to provide it “in a personal capacity”" - can simply result in two people being dismissed for gross misconduct. 

68ComebackSpecial

mahoney said:

Jillanddy said:

Deleted User said:

Don‚Äôt know why the hard time, OP‚Äôs OH may had a competency interview which often doesn‚Äôt require being asked why leaving jobs. The OP has admitted that they have lied to the potential employer so they HAVE been asked and they lied.

I would say though it is best to let the employer know more then you just have to tell them.

I‚Äôm going from private to public sector and found references are actually the last thing being checked. Once you are going through the checks which are costly let‚Äôs face it and being the right fit for a job why would an organisation want to withdraw. I don't know what public sector organisation you are going to work in but every one that I have come across checks references AND asks for far more than just the dates and reason for leaving. But the checks are there to try to check that you are telling them the truth, and if they find that you have lied then of course they will want to consider whether they wish to employ you.

Very best of luck to your partner. I hope they did get to move on.

Nobody is giving the OP a hard time. The OP is being told the truth and doesn't like it so they are reacting with anger and abuse best reserved for people who tell lies. 

OP is not reacting with 'anger and abuse", OP is just confused how a question on what does a post dismissal reference look like, has turned in to a holier than thou preach.  That's all.  And please don't label OP a liar.

Thanks so much to those who have provided help and support.  

Nobody has accused you of being a liar - but your husband, by your own admission, is. He didn't resign to " take a break ", he was sacked for gross misconduct, even if that is now subject to determination by an employment tribunal. 

You've asked what a reference could look like and, from my experience at a FTSE 100 company, I would say that whilst the majority of references were of the most basic details those where there had either been a disciplinary investigation or the employee had resigned before proceedings could be instigated were often reported in a reference. My husband is a senior manager with a very large employer (10k+ staff UK, 100k+ global) and has, with HR authorisation, given factually correct negative references where he seems them appropriate.

What your husband can agree with his previous employer is totally dependant on negotiation at this stage, and how strong his tribunal case is.

Dakta

Most people tell lies. However, the way that some in here react it is like the person is on the same level as a sex offender! 

This is rather dramatic, I'm sure if they thought that they'd have said as much.

Looks to me like people are just concerned that if found out this could become a bigger issue, i.e a trust issue. Which could totally blow the original problem out of the water for size in a worst case scenario


*written putting myself in the shoes of an employer where if someone volunteered the fact they'd be previously dismissed there is, circumstances depending that chance I might be tempted to not progress their application vs if they made efforts to not disclose, or even try to actively hide it - where i'd feel compelled to not progress their application

Everyone does deserve a second chance but what to make of it

MalMonroe

I've never applied for a job without being asked during interview why I want to leave my current post. And I've always been required to supply references from my current employer. Maybe it's just the line of work I've been in. Now retired and self-employed, I like it better this way.

Although you say, "I know honesty is usually the best route and will avoid thinking about it going forward, but concerned that he may tell them something they don't need to know", the only thing to do in a situation such as the one your husband is in is to tell the truth because they do need to know things. Some employers are happy to give people a second chance but would rather be told what has happened before a person is hired than after.

You also said "I can understand why companies do criminal checks, right to work etc, but when it's a previous employer's opinion (not following acas guidance), it doesn't feel right that they can keep that hold over you" - but it's not just the previous employer's opinion - it's an actual accusation of gross misconduct. 

When you say "He contested, spent a fortune on a lawyer, but ultimately the outcome was dismissal." I assume that it was an internal investigation.

If the case has moved on to Employment Tribunal stage then your husband has obviously been in contact with Acas already and should have been allocated a personal adviser. Hopefully he is preparing his case during the time he's waiting for a date. If the company did not follow the correct procedures as prescribed by Acas, that could affect the outcome of a tribunal - in your husband's favour, as here -

https://www.acas.org.uk/disciplinary-procedure-step-by-step/step-2-following-a-fair-procedure

But I'm not sure that this particular company will be fazed by a tribunal case and offering to drop it in exchange for a reference doesn't seem like something they'd want to do.

Citizens Advice is a good place to seek helpful advice. I've been through the ET process myself but a settlement was reached the week before we were due to go to court. It's very stressful, especially when you are going it alone - I had no partner to turn to - but it was worth the hard work and effort in the end. 

68ComebackSpecial

Dr_Crypto said:

I’m no longer surprised at the moralising and holier than thou attitude of posters in these forums, although it remains disappointing. 

Most people tell lies. However, the way that some in here react it is like the person is on the same level as a sex offender! 

Lots of ways to approach this. You could get an agreement with the previous employee to provide the reference in exchange for dropping the ET claim. You could ask former managers if they would be prepared to provide it “in a personal capacity” or you could see who the new firm will accept a reference from - sometimes they don’t say and you can use former colleagues 

There's a world of difference between the minor embellishment and positive spin, which a recruiter would expect to see from candidates, and the outright lie that an individual has resigned in order to take a break when they have been fired for gross misconduct. I find it disappointing that anyone would consider such behaviour acceptable.

Undervalued

mahoney said:

Jillanddy said:

Deleted User said:

Don‚Äôt know why the hard time, OP‚Äôs OH may had a competency interview which often doesn‚Äôt require being asked why leaving jobs. The OP has admitted that they have lied to the potential employer so they HAVE been asked and they lied.

I would say though it is best to let the employer know more then you just have to tell them.

I‚Äôm going from private to public sector and found references are actually the last thing being checked. Once you are going through the checks which are costly let‚Äôs face it and being the right fit for a job why would an organisation want to withdraw. I don't know what public sector organisation you are going to work in but every one that I have come across checks references AND asks for far more than just the dates and reason for leaving. But the checks are there to try to check that you are telling them the truth, and if they find that you have lied then of course they will want to consider whether they wish to employ you.

Very best of luck to your partner. I hope they did get to move on.

Nobody is giving the OP a hard time. The OP is being told the truth and doesn't like it so they are reacting with anger and abuse best reserved for people who tell lies. 

OP is not reacting with 'anger and abuse", OP is just confused how a question on what does a post dismissal reference look like, has turned in to a holier than thou preach.  That's all.  And please don't label OP a liar.

Thanks so much to those who have provided help and support.  

You may not be but you have stated on here that your husband has deliberately made a false statement in an attempt to secure employment. If that is not lying then I don't know what is. You seem to expect people to condone that behaviour.

He may get away with it. Equally it could come back to bite him hard at any point in the future.

The honest options are....

Be 100% honest in the hope that a potential employer will respect that and employ him on his merits. Some / many will respect that approach.

Reach a formal settlement agreement / COT3 with the employer in exchange for a neutral reference and an agreement that neither party will speak ill of the other. Honest but not perfect because it is difficult to avoid the potential employer realising that there is something being hidden.

Win an employment tribunal so that he is formally declared to have been unfairly dismissed. Depending on the circumstances he would probably get some compensation. It could be substantial but in the vast majority of cases it is not. A few years ago the average was about £6K which is less than most people expect. Keep in mind a tribunal cannot order the firm to provide a reference. Theoretically they can "order" reinstatement but it is almost meaningless as the only sanction if the firm refuses is a few weeks pay. In practice it never happens.

A tribunal's judgement is public and some employers search for them when assessing applications. Not all look favourably on candidates who have taken a former employer to an ET, even if they have won.

Finally, as your husband's expensive lawyer no doubt told him, to dismiss fairly in law an employer simply needs a "reasonable belief" that the misconduct took place (not proof) and that dismissal is within the range of sanctions a reasonable employer might choose. That is all that is required. Providing they had a reasonable belief at the time the dismissal remains fair (in law) even if it is subsequently proved that the employee was completely innocent.

robatwork

Dr_Crypto said:

Most people tell lies. However, the way that some in here react it is like the person is on the same level as a sex offender! 

Apologies in advance for my holier than thou stance but I'm really not much of a believer.

There are lies that are fundamental to the context, and ones that aren't.

In this example of a job interview...lying to "what were the circumstances you left your previous employment?" is a fundamental fact that's important to the employer.

In the interview..."Did you find the office easily?"...and you answer "Yes no problem" when in fact you drove there the night before to find it... not important.

Jude57

I'm another who has been a hiring manager and I'd certainly be asking for a more detailed reference than just dates and job title, even for entry level jobs. If a company has a policy of bare bones references I'd still want more detail and might seek further references from more than just the last employer. 

I've worked at that level in the private, public and charity sectors and in all it was strictly forbidden to give references for former or current employees in a personal capacity. It was specifically set out as gross misconduct to do so.

Jillanddy

Jude57 said:

I'm another who has been a hiring manager and I'd certainly be asking for a more detailed reference than just dates and job title, even for entry level jobs. If a company has a policy of bare bones references I'd still want more detail and might seek further references from more than just the last employer. 

I've worked at that level in the private, public and charity sectors and in all it was strictly forbidden to give references for former or current employees in a personal capacity. It was specifically set out as gross misconduct to do so.

Me too. In fact, and it was an HR professional who told me this many eons ago, if I get a "factual" reference,  that is what the phone is for.