Speeding and Driving without due care

Car_54

shrimptiger said:

TooManyPoints said:

I would be happy to just put forward my argument and evidence to the single magistrate, with a non guilty plea and let him deide based on the evidence  but it seems they will not even look at all the evidence, only look at it if it goes to court which is a bit unfair i think. 

You seem to be under a misapprehension. When a case is dealt with by a single magistrate (or more properly a "Single Justice") the matter has gone to court. Single Justices (SJs) are part of the Magistrates' Court process. But SJs do not deal with trials (i.e..Not Guilty pleas). What you are describing, as Adrian explains, is a trial. If you plead Not Guilty a trial is needed where both sides put forward their cases. The court then decides whether the prosecution has presented evidence to convince them, beyond reasonable doubt, of the defendant's guilt. A trial in the Magistrates' Court is presided over by a Bench of three Justices though sometimes a District Judge (Magistrates' Courts) sits alone.

Yes, but even if you pleade guilty, there is no black and white punishment, there is a range. i.e for DWDCA its 3-9 points based on severity. Therefore how can the single magistrate judge the severity without looking at the evidence?

The magistrate sees the prosecution evidence. There is, by definition, no defence evidence.

BTW the range is from 3-9 points, or disqualification.

ontheroad1970

[Deleted User] said:

shrimptiger said:

TooManyPoints said:

I would be happy to just put forward my argument and evidence to the single magistrate, with a non guilty plea and let him deide based on the evidence  but it seems they will not even look at all the evidence, only look at it if it goes to court which is a bit unfair i think. 

You seem to be under a misapprehension. When a case is dealt with by a single magistrate (or more properly a "Single Justice") the matter has gone to court. Single Justices (SJs) are part of the Magistrates' Court process. But SJs do not deal with trials (i.e..Not Guilty pleas). What you are describing, as Adrian explains, is a trial. If you plead Not Guilty a trial is needed where both sides put forward their cases. The court then decides whether the prosecution has presented evidence to convince them, beyond reasonable doubt, of the defendant's guilt. A trial in the Magistrates' Court is presided over by a Bench of three Justices though sometimes a District Judge (Magistrates' Courts) sits alone.

Yes, but even if you pleade guilty, there is no black and white punishment, there is a range. i.e for DWDCA its 3-9 points based on severity. Therefore how can the single magistrate judge the severity without looking at the evidence?

The magistrate sees the prosecution evidence. There is, by definition, no defence evidence.

BTW the range is from 3-9 points, or disqualification.

Which is why as I stated earlier, this needs to be well handled as a strict magistrate might decide to go for t he option of disqualification using the speed as an aggravating factor.  It would be unusually strict, but not an impossibility.

AdrianC

ontheroad1970 said:

[Deleted User] said:

shrimptiger said:

Yes, but even if you pleade guilty, there is no black and white punishment, there is a range. i.e for DWDCA its 3-9 points based on severity. Therefore how can the single magistrate judge the severity without looking at the evidence?

The magistrate sees the prosecution evidence. There is, by definition, no defence evidence.

BTW the range is from 3-9 points, or disqualification.

Which is why as I stated earlier, this needs to be well handled as a strict magistrate might decide to go for t he option of disqualification using the speed as an aggravating factor.  It would be unusually strict, but not an impossibility.

Magistrates do not have carte blanche to just wet-finger any ol' penalty they feel like from the entire range available. There are strict guidelines issued as to what factors affect sentencing and how.

Speeding :-
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/speeding-revised-2017/

DWDC&A/Careless Driving :-
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/careless-driving-drive-without-due-care-and-attention-revised-2017/

ontheroad1970

AdrianC said:

ontheroad1970 said:

[Deleted User] said:

shrimptiger said:

Yes, but even if you pleade guilty, there is no black and white punishment, there is a range. i.e for DWDCA its 3-9 points based on severity. Therefore how can the single magistrate judge the severity without looking at the evidence?

The magistrate sees the prosecution evidence. There is, by definition, no defence evidence.

BTW the range is from 3-9 points, or disqualification.

Which is why as I stated earlier, this needs to be well handled as a strict magistrate might decide to go for t he option of disqualification using the speed as an aggravating factor.  It would be unusually strict, but not an impossibility.

Magistrates do not have carte blanche to just wet-finger any ol' penalty they feel like from the entire range available. There are strict guidelines issued as to what factors affect sentencing and how.

Speeding :-
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/speeding-revised-2017/

DWDC&A/Careless Driving :-
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/careless-driving-drive-without-due-care-and-attention-revised-2017/

As Car54 stated correctly, disqualification is an option with DWDCA.  Admittedly it would take a very strict magistrate to do it, but having a speeding fine and a DWDCA together isn't going to end well in court. It's going to be at least 6 points.  And that is just what the court will give for the speeding.  It may well be within the realms of fixed penalty level in isolation, but that isn't an option for the OP because of the DWDCA charge.  In court by itself, 72 i n a 50 would easily see 6 points.  What do you think will be added for the DWDCA?  You don't usually get two sets of points, so I would expect to see a higher level of penalty points for DWDCA.  

The magistrate may decide that it merits more than 6 points because that is what they would have given for the speeding by itself.  That DWDCA will be really unhelpful to the OP.  I think it will be between 6 and 9 points.  I suspect 9.

AdrianC

Read those guidelines.

For the speed, 72 in a 50 is Band B, if a fixed penalty is not offered. That's 75-125%, starting point 100%, of weekly income as a fine, and 4-6 points.
Unacceptable driving above and beyond the speed alone is an aggravating factor.

For the DWDC&A, aggravating factors include the aggressive overtaking of other traffic, the speed, and the suggestion of "racing" with another vehicle. Mitigating factors include there being no collision. If we go with it being a Cat2 offence, then we're still on a Band B fine, with 5-6 points. It's possible it could be Cat1, but I doubt it from the description.

Previous clean licence is mitigating for both.

Agreed that the OP will just be given one of the two penalties - and it'll almost certainly be the DWDC&A. I'm going to guess at 6pts for CD10, and 100% of weekly earnings, plus the costs etc.

Car_54

AdrianC said:

Agreed that the OP will just be given one of the two penalties - and it'll almost certainly be the DWDC&A. I'm going to guess at 6pts for CD10, and 100% of weekly earnings, plus the costs etc.

Certainly there should only be one set of points, but the mag can impose two fines if he thinks it appropriate. He only has to "consider" the totality principle.

TooManyPoints

Therefore how can the single magistrate judge the severity without looking at the evidence?

Based on the prosecution’s explanation of the facts, which, since a guilty plea has been entered, the defendant accepts. 

He could plead guilty but dispute the facts. The court would then decide whether, having heard both versions, there would be a material difference in the sentence passed depending on which version is accepted. If they decide there would be such a difference, they order a “Newton Hearing” to establish the facts that will be used for sentencing. None of this would be heard by a Single Justice but it would be put before a normal court.

The magistrate may decide that it merits more than 6 points because that is what they would have given for the speeding by itself.  That DWDCA will be really unhelpful to the OP.  I think it will be between 6 and 9 points.  I suspect 9.

You have the sentencing principles wrong. The court will decide on an appropriate number of points (or a disqualification) for speeding and then go on to decide an appropriate number of points (or disqualification) for Careless Driving. They may do it the other way round but it doesn't matter. The offence which attracts the harshest penalty will be deemed "the most serious" and the points (or a disqualification) which the court decided was appropriate will be imposed for that offence alone. Whilst each of the offences may aggravate the other, the sentencing exercise is undertaken independently. Their process should not be "well we would have given him six points for speeding, so the CD must attract more." 

The speeding offence is on the cusp of 5 and 6 points. The band of seriousness covers 66-75 mph, for which the recommended penalty is 4-6 points. However, where there is evidence of an “…unacceptable standard of driving over and above speed” this could aggravate the offence and six points may be imposed. From the OP’s description of the Careless Driving, it seems the court may find it would fall into Category 2, for which the suggested penalty is 5-6 points. The offence is aggravated by excess speed (as I suggest, each offence aggravates the other). I would therefore expect no more than six points to be imposed. I do not see it crossing the threshold where a disqualification is warranted. There will be a fine for each offence (though the "totality" principle which Car54 mentions may have an influence), a victim surcharge of 10% of one of the fines (the highest if they are different) and £85 costs (assuming a guilty plea)..

shrimptiger

TooManyPoints said:

Therefore how can the single magistrate judge the severity without looking at the evidence?

He could plead guilty but dispute the facts. If they decide there would be such a difference, they order a “Newton Hearing” to establish the facts that will be used for sentencing. None of this would be heard by a Single Justice but it would be put before a normal court.

. There will be a fine for each offence (though the "totality" principle which Car54 mentions may have an influence), a victim surcharge of 10% of one of the fines (the highest if they are different) and £85 costs (assuming a guilty plea)..

Oh ok so i cannot request a netwon (they may ask for this?)  hearing and there is no option to plead guilty but dispute facts so i am guessing I would it would be ticking teh guilty box, and then explaining in the details box that you do not aggree with the facts. Anyone done this online before? Does it give you enough space for details?

So fine for both offences. is there guidelines on how much the fine is for each one?  Providing your income details/employment is options but i think if you don't then do they just go for maximum fine?

Also, if i were to plead guilty to speeding but not guilty to DWCA, does that automatically go to court, or does the single magistrate then decide if they are happy to punish for the speeding and drop the DWDCA?

shrimptiger

ah i cannot edit the above post but wanted to add, is the cost for the newton hearing same as a normal hearing? (£620) or not?

DB1904

shrimptiger said:

TooManyPoints said:

Therefore how can the single magistrate judge the severity without looking at the evidence?

He could plead guilty but dispute the facts. If they decide there would be such a difference, they order a “Newton Hearing” to establish the facts that will be used for sentencing. None of this would be heard by a Single Justice but it would be put before a normal court.

. There will be a fine for each offence (though the "totality" principle which Car54 mentions may have an influence), a victim surcharge of 10% of one of the fines (the highest if they are different) and £85 costs (assuming a guilty plea)..

Oh ok so i cannot request a netwon (they may ask for this?)  hearing and there is no option to plead guilty but dispute facts so i am guessing I would it would be ticking teh guilty box, and then explaining in the details box that you do not aggree with the facts. Anyone done this online before? Does it give you enough space for details?

So fine for both offences. is there guidelines on how much the fine is for each one?  Providing your income details/employment is options but i think if you don't then do they just go for maximum fine?

Also, if i were to plead guilty to speeding but not guilty to DWCA, does that automatically go to court, or does the single magistrate then decide if they are happy to punish for the speeding and drop the DWDCA?

It would yes, unless the prosecution withdraw the Carless charge.