BW Legal PPS - Plymouth, Devon - ANPR - overstay alleged

doubleoseven

Hello, 

Overview of action so far:

Alleged contravention was two and half years ago in Plymouth, overstay by one hour with Premier Parking Solutions Ltd (PPS). I appealed straight after receiving the PCN and requested further information, that did not follow but the appeal was rejected and nothing more happened in roughly two years. 

Received LBC from BW Legal (BWL) in past couple of weeks via email and post. Their number is blocked so I haven't had any calls.  

Since the LBC, I submitted a SARs to PPS, and let BWL know requesting a hold for 30 days, who asked me for lots of personal info, which I haven't yet responded too, as they have all the info already. 

SARS request:

- ALL photos taken

- all letters/emails sent and received, including any appeal correspondence earlier

- PDT machine record from that day, of payments made 

- all data held, all evidence you will rely on, and a full copy of the PCN, NTK

I've written to my MP who wrote back a letter within a few days, and his office has also contacted PPS on my behalf regarding my case and will revert back with a response. He makes reference to the parking code of practice and updates to the process and suggests "the code will build on previous action to tackle dodgy parking firms". https://!!!!!!/3m69x8Y 

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Details of case:

Car-park has ANPR, alleges I overstayed by approx one hour, original PCN has photos of car entering and exiting with time-stamps. 

The original letter didn't not state how much the alleged over-stayed was for, just stated entry/exit times and the car was liable for a fine. I appealed, using some generic text in the FAQ, which essentially denied responsibility and requested further evidence. They did not supply further evidence but did reject my appeal.

Frustratingly I no longer have the original ticket and was paid for in cash, thrown away a week after when car was cleaned. My colleague actually paid and is adamant it was paid for the period parked but we obviously cannot prove this and didn't use this in my appeal on that basis. 

In their rejection, they said:

"The daytime rate starts at 8am and finishes 12 hours later at 8pm, upto 1 hour is £1.20, 2 hours is £2.40, 3 hours is £3.60, 4 hours is £4.80 etc."

"We have checked our systems and we can see a payment for parking had been made just after your vehicle entered the car park (approx an hour before end of daylight tariff) which expired at (just after 8pm), there was no payment to cover the evening night time flat rate period which starts from 8pm and is charged at £3.00 for the 12 hour flat rate period".

I've received the SARS back, it has a screen grab of ZATPARK (I assume PDT software), which suggests payment for an hour. Plus the letters/communications and photos of the car and car-park at the time. I have my own photos also. 

Reading back through the appeal, it wasn't very strong and didn't really put forward my main objections, I probably should have done a SARS, but it was all new and stressful at that time. Being harassed by their goons at BWL. 

Having spent more time investigating the car-park since they sent the LBC, company and the general way they operate, my objection is to the very poor signage, the fact I wasn't actually clear I was entering into a contract, that ANPR system was in place from the second I entered or what the fine levels were, due to poor signage mentioned. And the fact that it seems set up to catch people out, so as a matter of principal, I feel the level of 'fines' they're asking for are un-reasonable. 

Even if the payment was made incorrectly and the car did over-stay or at least, there is not strong enough evidence to prove otherwise, the signage and the high levels of penalty are unacceptable. 

Assuming they do now take court action in 30 days or so, can you put forwards additional or different objections that were not in your original appeal?

Edited to add financials:

LBC states 'balance due' as £160. Principal of £100, plus (illegal) debt recover charge of £60. 

Estimated claim:

• Principal + Debt recovery = £160.
• Estimated interest = £25.
• Estimated Court Fees = £35.
• Estimated Solicitors costs = £50.

£270 total estimated claim. 

Guess we'll find out in court soon....or not. 

Coupon-mad

Yes you can put forward anything. The template defence is what you will use.

D_P_Dance

Are they claiming an extra unlawful amount for debt collection?  If so read this.

Excel v Wilkinson

At the Bradford County Court, District Judge Claire Jackson (now HHJ Jackson, a Specialist Civil Circuit Judge) decided to hear a 'test case' a few months ago, where £60 had been added to a parking charge despite Judges up and down the country repeatedly disallowing that sum and warning parking firms not to waste court time with such spurious claims.   That case was Excel v Wilkinson: G4QZ465V, heard in July 2020 and leave to appeal was refused and that route was not pursued.  The Judge concluded that such claims are proceedings with 'an improper collateral purpose'.   This Judge - and others who have since copied her words and struck dozens of cases out in late 2020 and into 2021 - went into significant detail and concluded that parking operators (such as this Claimant) are seeking to circumvent CPR 27.14 as well as breaching the Consumer Rights Act 2015.   DJ Hickinbottom has recently struck more cases out in that court area, stating: ''I find that striking out this claim is the only appropriate manner in which the disapproval of the court can be shown''.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/16qovzulab1szem/G4QZ465V Excel v Wilkinson.pdf?dl=0

doubleoseven

Thanks @ Coupon-mad. 

I've already downloaded and amended the template, so I guess I'm all set, will post if they actually press the button on legals. 

Just have to wait to see. 

Thanks to all for resources and time by you and others made available here. Very much appreciated.

doubleoseven

D_P_Dance said:

Are they claiming an extra unlawful amount for debt collection?  If so read this.

Excel v Wilkinson

At the Bradford County Court, District Judge Claire Jackson (now HHJ Jackson, a Specialist Civil Circuit Judge) decided to hear a 'test case' a few months ago, where £60 had been added to a parking charge despite Judges up and down the country repeatedly disallowing that sum and warning parking firms not to waste court time with such spurious claims.   That case was Excel v Wilkinson: G4QZ465V, heard in July 2020 and leave to appeal was refused and that route was not pursued.  The Judge concluded that such claims are proceedings with 'an improper collateral purpose'.   This Judge - and others who have since copied her words and struck dozens of cases out in late 2020 and into 2021 - went into significant detail and concluded that parking operators (such as this Claimant) are seeking to circumvent CPR 27.14 as well as breaching the Consumer Rights Act 2015.   DJ Hickinbottom has recently struck more cases out in that court area, stating: ''I find that striking out this claim is the only appropriate manner in which the disapproval of the court can be shown''.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/16qovzulab1szem/G4QZ465V Excel v Wilkinson.pdf?dl=0

Yup. "Balance due" £160. 

Sorry, should have mentioned that in my original post, will amend now for correctness. I've also included the above in the template defence. But a good reminder, thank you. 

1505grandad

"Since the LBC, I submitted a SARs to PPS......."

To avoid future confusion can you state the full name of PPS  -  there is/are more than one ppc  -  i.e:-

Private Parking Solutions (London) Limited

Phoenix Parking Solutions Limited

Premier Parking Solutions Ltd

doubleoseven

1505grandad said:

"Since the LBC, I submitted a SARs to PPS......."

To avoid future confusion can you state the full name of PPS  -  there is/are more than one ppc  -  i.e:-

Private Parking Solutions (London) Limited

Phoenix Parking Solutions Limited

Premier Parking Solutions Ltd

Thanks for pointing that out, it's the last one. Premier Parking solutions. I'll update the main thread for clarity. 

Here is the car-park and signage: 

https://imgur.com/a/SmT8bx5

Here is the full company information: 

http://pps.uk.com

Premier Parking Solutions LTD (PPS)
Whose Registered office address is: 13 Devon Square, Newton Abbot, Devon, United Kingdom, TQ12 2HN Company number 06659134

General Manager/Company Director: Barrie Douglass

https://www.linkedin.com/in/barrie-douglass-354b0070/

He was on LinkedIn, but appears to have removed his profile, can't think why

patient_dream

The real PPC would be good to know.

Is Plymouth the area where you live ?

If so, if this goes to court, the court you would select is Truro in Cornwall. A nice day out or maybe not if it becomes a video case.

WHY Truro ?   because Truro do not accept the rubbish of BWLegal

Read this thread ... https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6094351/letter-of-claim-from-bw-legal/p12


The OP in this case said this ...

"It's also great to know that at least in Truro they've started to realise what these crooks are all about!"

Plymouth to Truro = (55.6 min) via A38 and A30

A day out and BWL being spanked in court and you can claim your costs

BWLEGAL v TRURO ..... it's a no brainer

doubleoseven

patient_dream said:

Is Plymouth the area where you live ?

No, I'm actually between London and East Anglia. Was down there for work at the time. So Truro is about a 5 hour drive. 

patient_dream said:

The real PPC would be good to know.

Don't quite understand this question. The company is called Premier Parking Solutions Ltd. They appear to own the freehold of the land as well. Check this thread: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6056412/pps-newton-abbot-parking-charge#latest

patient_dream said:

A day out and BWL being spanked in court and you can claim your costs

I like your thinking, nice excuse to visit Devon, wonder if they'd cover the costs from London?  

Do you think it's likely to win even with the hour over stay or likely they'd just cap the 'fine'?

patient_dream

doubleoseven said:

patient_dream said:

Is Plymouth the area where you live ?

No, I'm actually between London and East Anglia. Was down there for work at the time. So Truro is about a 5 hour drive. 

patient_dream said:

The real PPC would be good to know.

Don't quite understand this question. The company is called Premier Parking Solutions Ltd. They appear to own the freehold of the land as well. Check this thread: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6056412/pps-newton-abbot-parking-charge#latest

patient_dream said:

A day out and BWL being spanked in court and you can claim your costs

I like your thinking, nice excuse to visit Devon, wonder if they'd cover the costs from London?  

Do you think it's likely to win even with the hour over stay or likely they'd just cap the 'fine'?

Premier Parking Solutions Ltd ... OK

It's not just Truro, BWLegal get spanked all over England and Wales and this will depend on how closely you listen to the regulars

BWLegal despite their roar are easy to beat

doubleoseven

patient_dream said:

Do you think it's likely to win even with the hour over stay or likely they'd just cap the 'fine'?

Depend on how closely you listen to the regulars

That's certainly my intention. 

Good to know the potential is there.