Need further negotiations, but....

desthemoaner

canaldumidi said:

Not enough information.....

desthemoaner said:

Evening all

Bit long this, sorry.

Currently buying and selling: making glacial progress on both counts. We lost out on a couple of properties after being outbid well over asking price, so put in an offer six grand above "asking" for a house in an area we really like. We secured the property, and set about arranging surveys etc.

£6K over a 100K property or £6K over a £1M property?

The boiler needs replacement, 

What did the survey say? Surveyors are not boiler engineers and rarely state this unless it actually does not work. What was the exact wording? More info needed.

and to our surprise and delight the vendor voluntarily reduced the purchase price by an amount equivalent to two thirds of that cost. 

That is indeed surprising and delightdul.

Following the building survey we had an EICR completed, and that threw up about a grand’s worth of work.

Again, more info needed. Essential for remedy dangerous wiring, or suggested improvements? Were the items C1, C2, or C3s?

The building survey report identified two further potential problems: a flat roof that needed replacement,

More info needed. Is it leaking? or is it 'near the end of its life' which could mean it will last 5 more years, need some patching, and then last another 5 years?

and the existence of pitch fibre drains. I arranged a drain survey, then organised a flat roof inspection and quote, and that’s when the fun began. More info.... what did the drain survey show?

The EA informed the vendor about the flat roof inspection and he took umbrage, demanding that no further visits by tradesmen be arranged,

I'm not hugely surprised.

and that if we did so, and asked for more money off the price he would withdraw the property from sale and remarket it ( the property is empty and being sold with vacant possession).

I'm not hugely surprised.

Leaving aside the fact that we’ve done nothing unusual  cannot comment as not enough info provided to justify the requested deductions

and that another buyer would almost certainly insist on exactly the same checks,

another buyer might or might not insist on exactly the same checks, and might or might not insist on exactly the same deductions

 that seems like a totally illogical stance to take.

Not at all. You don't know the vendor's position. Perhaps he's more concerned with obtaining the price he has in mind than in selling within a given timescale. Perhaps he feels the items you've listed are not as serious as you do (hard tosay as you've not provided enough info). Or.... or....

Meanwhile, perhaps in order to draw a line under the transaction,  he reduced the property price by an amount that covers the remaining cost of the boiler. That seems VERY reasonable

 We’re now facing a possible (not enough info) hefty bill for the electrics, the flat roof and the drain replacement ( cost TBA). We could swallow the entire cost but it’s likely to be five grand or more. not enough info

Being about six weeks into both sale and purchase and having spent over a grand on surveys, I’m  reluctant to pull the plug on the purchase, Understandable - that's the way property purchaes go. If you DO pull the plug, instead of thinking "I've wasted over a grand", think "That grand was well-spent and saved me mis-buying".

but also reluctant to take on what is likely to be a significant cost without further attempts at negotiation.  There are no other properties we can afford in the area where we want to live. You have 3 choices then. No one can tell which is right.

I suppose the crucial question is “how much do we want that property”, and if the answer is “a lot”, then we must pay the entire price of those repairs.  However, bearing in mind that neither I nor anyone who posts here knows how the vendor’s mind works, is it worth talking to the EA, ask them if they can just advise the vendor of the costs we’ve identified rather than actually asking for a reduction, and hope that he voluntarily stumps up a bit more cash? All at the risk of him taking the property off the market?

There's no point advising the vendor of the costs you’ve identified UNLESS you are actually asking for a reduction!

But surveys and other investigations are not purely and simply done as a means or justification to renegotiate. They are also to help you decide if the property is for you or not. If you are willing to take on improvement works or not. To help you plan for the future, whether that be undertaking improvements or being happy tolive in a less than 100% perfect property.

Ok, taking most of your points in the order made. 

6k over on a property under 200k

The surveyor didn't recommend boiler replacement. The seller admitted that the boiler was on its last legs, and we arranged a quote by a heating engineer. 

Suggested improvements to bring the installation up to standard. No C1s, a mixture of C2s and C3s.

I'm surprised that you're surprised. I didn't arrange the quotes /inspections looking for more money off the price, but rather because we wanted to know exactly what we were taking on. I tried but failed to communicate this to the vendor. 

I can't further quantify all the amounts involved because this would risk identifying not only myself, but the vendor too. 

Its my belief that another buyer WOULD insist on roughly the same set of checks. 
 
As stated above, I attempted at one stage to communicate to the vendor that we were happy with the reductions he'd already made, but it appears that he believed every tradesman's visit we arranged was intended to knock more money off. It was not.

Fair comment re the remark about the grand spent saving us "misbuying". 

I agree with your last paragraph, and indeed, again as stated above, the reason for the majority of the quotes/inspections was to find out exactly what we were letting ourselves in for, not to achieve further reductions. It was only when the extent of the costs involved became clear that we began to realise that further negotiation might be necessary.

desthemoaner

doodling said:

Hi,

desthemoaner said:

... I arranged a drain survey, then organised a flat roof inspection and quote, and that’s when the fun began.

The EA informed the vendor about the flat roof inspection and he took umbrage, demanding that no further visits by tradesmen be arranged, and that if we did so, and asked for more money off the price he would withdraw the property from sale and remarket it ( the property is empty and being sold with vacant possession). Leaving aside the fact that we’ve done nothing unusual and that another buyer would almost certainly insist on exactly the same checks,  that seems like a totally illogical stance to take.

...

The way that reads is that you arranged for tradespeople to inspect the property without the vendors knowledge or permission. It is likely that those tradespeople would need to have trespassed on the property to do their inspections.

If you did that to me I'd think very seriously about withdrawing from the sale. The fact that they have offered more money off strikes me as incredibly reasonable in the circumstances 

If that is the case then you will need to rebuild a lot of trust with your vendor before you have any chance of negotiating any further reductions and even then they may simply remarket at the first hint of such a request.

No, the vendor was present during all the inspections. I made that arrangement with him through the EA. No way would I have just sent people along willy nilly without the seller's consent. 

Fair comment in your last paragraph. I think I did answer my own question in my OP, but was somehow hoping for an as yet unconsidered magic bullet. Clearly no such bullet exists. 

AdrianC

desthemoaner said:

Irishpearce26 said:

What did the surveyors valuation say?

The surveyor didn't do a valuation. We didn't ask for one, and we're buying mortgage free. However in the current market situation, we didn't regard the original asking price as unreasonable. 

So there are only three people who have expressed an opinion on the value of the house, as it was in the condition you viewed it.

1. The EA, in setting the guide price.
2. You, in offering.
3. The vendor in accepting your offer.

You said the EA's figure was low.

Now you unilaterally want to change your mind. There is no external influence involved, because there is no lender involved.

What age did the boiler appear to be? Ancient? Then needing replacement was probably not unexpected.
Could you see the flat roof from any windows? How did it look?
What are the EICR ratings? What did the consumer unit look like?
There's not much a layman can easily tell about drains from a viewing. But, going by your comment about nothing else in your price range in the area, do I presume that this house is in a relatively unimproved condition?

MrsBrush

If there was no valuation undertaken and the original asking price, and subsequent reduction for a new boiler is all reasonable, then why on earth would you risk upsetting the vendor by nit picking everything that might be wrong with the property?

Do you not have a 'make the house ours' budget? To me, expecting to have to find £5-10k in the first year or two to fix the things that will make the place work for you is normal and sensible. If you are overstretching to the point there is no flex, then you probably should be looking at a cheaper property!

I am all for due diligence and making sure that there are no nasty and very expensive surprises, but there is due diligence and there is taking the P. Every house, by the nature of changing building regulations, wear and tear and normal living will need something doing to it. and all surveyors will point out the risks and potential things that might need looking at in time. Even the perfectly sparkly new builds, that have the perfect everything, have snagging lists as long as as the queues for fuel - it is all a part of the process.

Unless something is dangerous (i.e. gas or electricity disconnected by the utility company, or something like a roof is condemned) it doesn't NEED to be done on day 1, no matter how much you might WANT it to be. And if it is in a 'want' category, the vendor does not have to oblige and be bullied into paying for a large list of demands. The vendor is perfectly within their rights to refuse further negotiations and ultimately refuse to sell and re-market.

desthemoaner

babyblade41 said:

If it were me I wouldn't allow you anywhere near my property , you can't keep arranging trades people to pick away at  a property then trying to negotiate a downwards offer.

I would be saying to my agent to re-market pronto 

As stated earlier, the boiler replacement reduction was gratefully received. Having secured that we didn't expect any further negotiation to be necessary, and indeed I originally told the EA that I didn't intend to renegotiate on the basis of the electrical inspection or even the flat roof work, the latter of which was identified during the survey. I don't think it was unreasonable to arrange an EICR, nor a costing for the flat roof.
The drain problems came as a total surprise (the surveyor having recommended a drains inspection, but only as a precaution because there are shared drains) because the property was built in the 80s and the last thing I expected was pitch fibre. That last finding is likely to be very expensive to fix, and may indeed prove the clincher, which is why I said in my OP that I would like further negotiation.

desthemoaner

AdrianC said:

desthemoaner said:

(We) put in an offer six grand above "asking" for a house

...

The boiler needs replacement, and to our surprise and delight the vendor voluntarily reduced the purchase price by an amount equivalent to two thirds of that cost.  Following the building survey we had an EICR completed, and that threw up about a grand’s worth of work. The building survey report identified two further potential problems: a flat roof that needed replacement, and the existence of pitch fibre drains. I arranged a drain survey, then organised a flat roof inspection and quote, and that’s when the fun began.

The EA informed the vendor about the flat roof inspection and he took umbrage, demanding that no further visits by tradesmen be arranged, and that if we did so, and asked for more money off the price he would withdraw the property from sale and remarket it

I don't blame him.

You offered £6k over asking, then started trying to chisel the price back down, bit by bit.
No mention of the survey's valuation, I notice... How did that align with the original asking?
What category were the EICR works identified? 1,2 or 3?

Why not do all of the due diligence, THEN ask about renegotiating in one go based on the entirety of the condition?

But, of course, the ultimate answer is that it's entirely his prerogative as to whether to renegotiate or stand firm.

I suppose the crucial question is “how much do we want that property”, and if the answer is “a lot”, then we must pay the entire price of those repairs.

Exactly that.

However, bearing in mind that neither I nor anyone who posts here knows how the vendor’s mind works, is it worth talking to the EA, ask them if they can just advise the vendor of the costs we’ve identified rather than actually asking for a reduction, and hope that he voluntarily stumps up a bit more cash? All at the risk of him taking the property off the market?

As you say, nobody knows the vendor.

But it strikes me he's already answered that question, so why would asking it again give a different answer?

 No mention of the survey's valuation because we didn't ask for one. No mortgage, and we thought it was reasonably priced at asking. We only offered 6k over because as I said earlier, we'd already failed to secure two other properties. 

EICR's findings C2 and C3.

Reason for not negotiating the package was frankly because we never intended to negotiate any further reductions once the boiler allowance had been made. The other quotes/ inspections were for costings of items we would have dealt with ourselves. But then they began to mount up, which yes, and that took us to a level of expense  where we never expected to be. 

Of course renegotiation is his prerogative. I was taken aback by his demand that no further tradespeople should visit, because at that stage we were happy to deal with any costs thrown up by those inspections ourselves. The drains costs, however, were unexpected. 

Fair enough re him having answered the question already. We should have an itemised quote for fixing the drains later this week, and will decide how to go forward on that basis. 

desthemoaner

fezster said:

Are you able to purchase an equivalent property without the remedial works for the same price? If so, ask for a reduction and move on if it is not forthcoming.

If not, then it's unlikely the vendor will drop the price, as he'd be able to get more by re-marketing and selling to someone else.

The fact you have spent money on surveys etc is a risk you take as a buyer. The vendor has not incurred those costs and, unless he is in a situation where he is desperate to sell, is more easily able to say no and look for an alternate buyer.

Fair comment. 

desthemoaner

theoretica said:

desthemoaner said:

There are no other properties we can afford in the area where we want to live.

 The price is X, the house is in the condition it is in.  Do you want it?  or not?  Are other properties asking for more in part because they are in better condition so the costs of work like this is already factored in?

I think the price of the house as marketed was fair. We do want it, but we wouldn't die of disappointment if it didn't happen, although at present similar properties in the area in the same price bracket are rocking horse ordure, so its not possible to make comparisons.

desthemoaner

lookstraightahead said:

I'm all for checking things out properly and also having tradespeople in - especially if it's a cash buy.

what I don't understand though is why you think buying a house comes with no work to do? If you want absolutely no maintenance work for the next few years, but a new house (although some can be worse). 

Did your full structural survey say the flat roof needed replacing immediately as it was a danger? 

how old is the house?

If I was your vendor I too would be relisting. 

 I don't think that buying a house comes with no work to do. That's a total misrepresentation of our position. The house had one occupier for a lot of years, and although tidy clearly required modernisation. 

House was built in the early 80s.

No, the flat roof isn't dangerous, but its in poor condition and the electrical CU and boiler is in the room below. So there's "potential danger of damage to essential services", I suppose. 

desthemoaner

AdrianC said:

desthemoaner said:

Irishpearce26 said:

What did the surveyors valuation say?

The surveyor didn't do a valuation. We didn't ask for one, and we're buying mortgage free. However in the current market situation, we didn't regard the original asking price as unreasonable. 

So there are only three people who have expressed an opinion on the value of the house, as it was in the condition you viewed it.

1. The EA, in setting the guide price.
2. You, in offering.
3. The vendor in accepting your offer.

You said the EA's figure was low.

Now you unilaterally want to change your mind. There is no external influence involved, because there is no lender involved.

What age did the boiler appear to be? Ancient? Then needing replacement was probably not unexpected.
Could you see the flat roof from any windows? How did it look?
What are the EICR ratings? What did the consumer unit look like?
There's not much a layman can easily tell about drains from a viewing. But, going by your comment about nothing else in your price range in the area, do I presume that this house is in a relatively unimproved condition?

The boiler is about 20 years old. The seller and I dealt with that issue satisfactorily. 

The flat roof is not visible from any windows I was able to access. The surveyor inspected it using a ladder and/ or a camera on a pole.

EICR C2 and C3 as stated above. Electrician recommended a new CU. 

Yes, relatively unimproved: requires modernisation was the term used by the surveyor. But I didn't expect the drain problem. I live in a bungalow built in 1973 and the drains here are in far better condition.