Possibly mis-sold spray foam insulation

stuart45

One of the problems with foam is that as it expands it pushes up the felt a bit. When you felt a roof it needs to sag a bit between the rafters to allow any moisture to run past the battens. Trapping it can damage the felt and rot the battens.

Screwloose_2

i would leave it for now, especially if you have a certified product, with all the paperwork, ie warranty, guarantees etc. 

probably need a bit more research, after there has been a lot of scaremongering and misinformation.

Why it is not necessary to remove spray foam - IMA

its the same as anything i see it,

for example if you had some plumbing work done, then it leaked. this doesn't mean all plumbing is bad, it just means you had a bad plumber.

 i work in the building industry, and foams of all descriptions and manufacturers are installed into every new build in the country with maybe a couple of exceptions.

ComicGeek

Screwloose_2 said:

i would leave it for now, especially if you have a certified product, with all the paperwork, ie warranty, guarantees etc. 

probably need a bit more research, after there has been a lot of scaremongering and misinformation.

Why it is not necessary to remove spray foam - IMA

its the same as anything i see it,

for example if you had some plumbing work done, then it leaked. this doesn't mean all plumbing is bad, it just means you had a bad plumber.

 i work in the building industry, and foams of all descriptions and manufacturers are installed into every new build in the country with maybe a couple of exceptions.

From a so called 'association'  that website and articles are laughable, personally I think spray foam should be banned and any company/individual that sells it to home owners should be heavily fined and face the same criminal charges as fraudsters.

To take the plumber analogy, it's like a plumber using completely the wrong materials for the job when the right materials are already readily available and cheaper - charging you more to do the job, and then charging even more to correct their 'mistake'. 

Spray foam is nothing but a scam. And that's from someone who has worked in the building industry for 25+ years. The 'scaremongering' is needed as there are too many crooks willing to take advantage of people. In over 25 years of work, and hundreds of thousands of new builds that I've worked on and designed, never ever has any spray foam insulation been used - the above poster is talking nonsense.

It's on all of us to tell our neighbours and any vulnerable elderly in our neighbourhoods to avoid this, in the same way as any other scam.

ThisIsWeird

MysteryMe said:

It is highly debatable whether using spray foam insulation in residential houses is desirable.  

Many allegations of mis selling have arisen with claims such as increasing property value, reducing heating bills by X amount, putting pressure on householders by wanting quick decisions to be made, making claims about various subsidies or Government initiatives.  If a householder believes they have been mis sold they should contact the Citizens Advice Consumer Service 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-more-help/if-you-need-more-help-about-a-consumer-issue/

None of the timbers or any electrics should be coated and the foam should be sprayed onto what are known as sliders which is a barrier between the underside of the roof and the foam. There still needs to be ventilation in the loft space and often vents are sprayed over.

Thank you. To take your pertinent points further, if the foam has been applied to the undersides of a sloping roof between the rafters, in a normally-ventilated loft space - ie as found in the overwhelming majority of British homes - then it ain't 'insulation', and cannot reduce your heating bills. Ergo, if termed 'insulation', it has been mis-sold on that basis alone.

As I believe it has in the vast majority of cases, certainly the ones seen on this forum.

An open loft apace needs to be kept thoroughly ventilated to prevent condensation forming. It will therefore be - quite naturally - very cold up there in cold weather, and hot in ditto. But, it'll be dry as a result of the designed-in ventilation. The loft is, in this respect, an 'outdoor' space, and the roof an umbrella over it; it keeps the rain off your home, but wind still flows through it. If you added a thick layer of fleece to your brolly cover, it wouldn't make you warmer underneath it. Ditto insulating the roof covering.

The only place where 'insulation' should be applied is on top of the room ceilings - ie, your usual 'loft insulation'. It is only there that it can be effective; it's like putting a wool cap on yer 'ead when you use yer brolly.

Any quotes or invoices for foam loft 'insulation' should be a challengeable open and shut case on that basis alone, imv.

Screwloose_2

ComicGeek said:

Screwloose_2 said:

i would leave it for now, especially if you have a certified product, with all the paperwork, ie warranty, guarantees etc. 

probably need a bit more research, after there has been a lot of scaremongering and misinformation.

Why it is not necessary to remove spray foam - IMA

its the same as anything i see it,

for example if you had some plumbing work done, then it leaked. this doesn't mean all plumbing is bad, it just means you had a bad plumber.

 i work in the building industry, and foams of all descriptions and manufacturers are installed into every new build in the country with maybe a couple of exceptions.

From a so called 'association'  that website and articles are laughable, personally I think spray foam should be banned and any company/individual that sells it to home owners should be heavily fined and face the same criminal charges as fraudsters.

To take the plumber analogy, it's like a plumber using completely the wrong materials for the job when the right materials are already readily available and cheaper - charging you more to do the job, and then charging even more to correct their 'mistake'. 

Spray foam is nothing but a scam. And that's from someone who has worked in the building industry for 25+ years. The 'scaremongering' is needed as there are too many crooks willing to take advantage of people. In over 25 years of work, and hundreds of thousands of new builds that I've worked on and designed, never ever has any spray foam insulation been used - the above poster is talking nonsense.

It's on all of us to tell our neighbours and any vulnerable elderly in our neighbourhoods to avoid this, in the same way as any other scam.

people being scammed or overcharged or pressure sales again is a totally different subject, and not what the op asked.
and simply saying its a scam as you've been in the building industry a few years doesn't make it fact, its just your opinion.

the plumber analogy is still valid, as in if the incorrect materials are used then it shouldn't tarnish the correct materials when used.

Again in all trades there are people who charge a decent rate, and some that overcharge or even have people over, of course some may use cheaper materials, or materials not accredited or charge more or put where not suitable, however that should not tar all professional installers of approved and accredited products.


So how do you feel about Celotex, or Kingspan or others being installed into properties, ie roofs, walls and floors  ?

i think there needs better understanding sometimes of how products work. 

ComicGeek

Screwloose_2 said:

ComicGeek said:

Screwloose_2 said:

i would leave it for now, especially if you have a certified product, with all the paperwork, ie warranty, guarantees etc. 

probably need a bit more research, after there has been a lot of scaremongering and misinformation.

Why it is not necessary to remove spray foam - IMA

its the same as anything i see it,

for example if you had some plumbing work done, then it leaked. this doesn't mean all plumbing is bad, it just means you had a bad plumber.

 i work in the building industry, and foams of all descriptions and manufacturers are installed into every new build in the country with maybe a couple of exceptions.

From a so called 'association'  that website and articles are laughable, personally I think spray foam should be banned and any company/individual that sells it to home owners should be heavily fined and face the same criminal charges as fraudsters.

To take the plumber analogy, it's like a plumber using completely the wrong materials for the job when the right materials are already readily available and cheaper - charging you more to do the job, and then charging even more to correct their 'mistake'. 

Spray foam is nothing but a scam. And that's from someone who has worked in the building industry for 25+ years. The 'scaremongering' is needed as there are too many crooks willing to take advantage of people. In over 25 years of work, and hundreds of thousands of new builds that I've worked on and designed, never ever has any spray foam insulation been used - the above poster is talking nonsense.

It's on all of us to tell our neighbours and any vulnerable elderly in our neighbourhoods to avoid this, in the same way as any other scam.

people being scammed or overcharged or pressure sales again is a totally different subject, and not what the op asked.
and simply saying its a scam as you've been in the building industry a few years doesn't make it fact, its just your opinion.

Again in all trades there are people who charge a decent rate, and some that overcharge or even have people over, of course some may use cheaper materials, or materials not accredited or charge more or put where not suitable, however that should not tar all professional installers of approved and accredited products.


So how do you feel about Celotex, or Kingspan or others being installed into properties, ie roofs, walls and floors  ?

i think there needs better understanding sometimes of how products work. 

No, it's the wrong solution for residential homes, full stop. There is no justification for it for insulation purposes. The vast majority of roof spaces are constructed as cold roofs, ie the roof void is designed to be cold and ventilated, with insulation installed at ceiling level below only.

Installing additional insulation within the pitched roof line of a cold roof (either spray insulation or mineral wool or PIR insulation) increases the risk of surface condensation within the roof space. There are multiple British Standards covering this, and is the reason why this is never done on new builds. Installing insulation like this is fundamentally wrong, and it is disgusting that trade bodies try to defend it. 

There is also no need to install spray foam insulation at ceiling level either, as mineral wool quilt insulation is a much better solution and much cheaper. It is also easily replaceable/moveable as required.

Installation of PIR insulation depends on the overall fire strategy for the scheme, but I have no issues with PIR in roofs, walls and floors where appropriate. That depends on each particular case, but most new builds will now be using PIR in ground floors, mineral wool batts in external walls and mineral quilt in cold lofts - PIR insulation would be installed between roof rafters only for room-in-rooms, and where the space is heated. 

I am fully aware of how insulation works, and have been involved with BBA certification for insulation products as well as specifying insulation for 25+ years. I have also worked as an expert witness in court cases, and fully expect the number of court cases involved spray foam insulation to exponentially increase.

Screwloose_2

ComicGeek said:

Screwloose_2 said:

ComicGeek said:

Screwloose_2 said:

i would leave it for now, especially if you have a certified product, with all the paperwork, ie warranty, guarantees etc. 

probably need a bit more researchafter there has been a lot of scaremongering and misinformation.

Why it is not necessary to remove spray foam - IMA

its the same as anything i see it,

for example if you had some plumbing work done, then it leaked. this doesn't mean all plumbing is bad, it just means you had a bad plumber.

 i work in the building industry, and foams of all descriptions and manufacturers are installed into every new build in the country with maybe a couple of exceptions.

From a so called 'association'  that website and articles are laughable, personally I think spray foam should be banned and any company/individual that sells it to home owners should be heavily fined and face the same criminal charges as fraudsters.

To take the plumber analogy, it's like a plumber using completely the wrong materials for the job when the right materials are already readily available and cheaper - charging you more to do the job, and then charging even more to correct their 'mistake'. 

Spray foam is nothing but a scam. And that's from someone who has worked in the building industry for 25+ years. The 'scaremongering' is needed as there are too many crooks willing to take advantage of people. In over 25 years of work, and hundreds of thousands of new builds that I've worked on and designed, never ever has any spray foam insulation been used - the above poster is talking nonsense.

It's on all of us to tell our neighbours and any vulnerable elderly in our neighbourhoods to avoid this, in the same way as any other scam.

people being scammed or overcharged or pressure sales again is a totally different subject, and not what the op asked.
and simply saying its a scam as you've been in the building industry a few years doesn't make it fact, its just your opinion.

Again in all trades there are people who charge a decent rate, and some that overcharge or even have people over, of course some may use cheaper materials, or materials not accredited or charge more or put where not suitable, however that should not tar all professional installers of approved and accredited products.


So how do you feel about Celotex, or Kingspan or others being installed into properties, ie roofs, walls and floors  ?

i think there needs better understanding sometimes of how products work. 

No, it's the wrong solution for residential homes, full stop. There is no justification for it for insulation purposes. The vast majority of roof spaces are constructed as cold roofs, ie the roof void is designed to be cold and ventilated, with insulation installed at ceiling level below only.

Installing additional insulation within the pitched roof line of a cold roof (either spray insulation or mineral wool or PIR insulation) increases the risk of surface condensation within the roof space. There are multiple British Standards covering this, and is the reason why this is never done on new builds. Installing insulation like this is fundamentally wrong, and it is disgusting that trade bodies try to defend it. 

There is also no need to install spray foam insulation at ceiling level either, as mineral wool quilt insulation is a much better solution and much cheaper. It is also easily replaceable/moveable as required.

Installation of PIR insulation depends on the overall fire strategy for the scheme, but I have no issues with PIR in roofs, walls and floors where appropriate. That depends on each particular case, but most new builds will now be using PIR in ground floors, mineral wool batts in external walls and mineral quilt in cold lofts - PIR insulation would be installed between roof rafters only for room-in-rooms, and where the space is heated. 

I am fully aware of how insulation works, and have been involved with BBA certification for insulation products as well as specifying insulation for 25+ years. I have also worked as an expert witness in court cases, and fully expect the number of court cases involved spray foam insulation to exponentially increase.

I'm not going to argue with you, whether its a warm, cold or a hybrid roof being fitted, as each job should be handled individually.

but as you state yourself 

"I have no issues with PIR in roofs, walls and floors where appropriate. That depends on each particular case"

PIR is still foam.....

And then just because wool its more easily replaced, removable, doesn't mean the other is unsuitable or not as efficient( generally better r values)
plus the added extra of no taped joints, gaps, so a monolithic finish.

no point getting into debate about condensation either, unless you show a before and after hygrothermal calc, which generally shows less risk after installation when I've seen them.

I'm not saying every install will be correct, mineral wool batts are another example, not used in correct areas and they will allow water to bridge the cavity to the internal wall, so you wouldn't use in coastal, high exposure etc.

each type of insulation has its place.


this is well of topic for the op,



i still say if there are no issues, you have the paperwork, then leave in place.

ComicGeek

Screwloose_2 said:

ComicGeek said:

Screwloose_2 said:

ComicGeek said:

Screwloose_2 said:

i would leave it for now, especially if you have a certified product, with all the paperwork, ie warranty, guarantees etc. 

probably need a bit more researchafter there has been a lot of scaremongering and misinformation.

Why it is not necessary to remove spray foam - IMA

its the same as anything i see it,

for example if you had some plumbing work done, then it leaked. this doesn't mean all plumbing is bad, it just means you had a bad plumber.

 i work in the building industry, and foams of all descriptions and manufacturers are installed into every new build in the country with maybe a couple of exceptions.

From a so called 'association'  that website and articles are laughable, personally I think spray foam should be banned and any company/individual that sells it to home owners should be heavily fined and face the same criminal charges as fraudsters.

To take the plumber analogy, it's like a plumber using completely the wrong materials for the job when the right materials are already readily available and cheaper - charging you more to do the job, and then charging even more to correct their 'mistake'. 

Spray foam is nothing but a scam. And that's from someone who has worked in the building industry for 25+ years. The 'scaremongering' is needed as there are too many crooks willing to take advantage of people. In over 25 years of work, and hundreds of thousands of new builds that I've worked on and designed, never ever has any spray foam insulation been used - the above poster is talking nonsense.

It's on all of us to tell our neighbours and any vulnerable elderly in our neighbourhoods to avoid this, in the same way as any other scam.

people being scammed or overcharged or pressure sales again is a totally different subject, and not what the op asked.
and simply saying its a scam as you've been in the building industry a few years doesn't make it fact, its just your opinion.

Again in all trades there are people who charge a decent rate, and some that overcharge or even have people over, of course some may use cheaper materials, or materials not accredited or charge more or put where not suitable, however that should not tar all professional installers of approved and accredited products.


So how do you feel about Celotex, or Kingspan or others being installed into properties, ie roofs, walls and floors  ?

i think there needs better understanding sometimes of how products work. 

No, it's the wrong solution for residential homes, full stop. There is no justification for it for insulation purposes. The vast majority of roof spaces are constructed as cold roofs, ie the roof void is designed to be cold and ventilated, with insulation installed at ceiling level below only.

Installing additional insulation within the pitched roof line of a cold roof (either spray insulation or mineral wool or PIR insulation) increases the risk of surface condensation within the roof space. There are multiple British Standards covering this, and is the reason why this is never done on new builds. Installing insulation like this is fundamentally wrong, and it is disgusting that trade bodies try to defend it. 

There is also no need to install spray foam insulation at ceiling level either, as mineral wool quilt insulation is a much better solution and much cheaper. It is also easily replaceable/moveable as required.

Installation of PIR insulation depends on the overall fire strategy for the scheme, but I have no issues with PIR in roofs, walls and floors where appropriate. That depends on each particular case, but most new builds will now be using PIR in ground floors, mineral wool batts in external walls and mineral quilt in cold lofts - PIR insulation would be installed between roof rafters only for room-in-rooms, and where the space is heated. 

I am fully aware of how insulation works, and have been involved with BBA certification for insulation products as well as specifying insulation for 25+ years. I have also worked as an expert witness in court cases, and fully expect the number of court cases involved spray foam insulation to exponentially increase.

I'm not going to argue with you, whether its a warm, cold or a hybrid roof being fitted, as each job should be handled individually.

but as you state yourself 

"I have no issues with PIR in roofs, walls and floors where appropriate. That depends on each particular case"

PIR is still foam.....

And then just because wool its more easily replaced, removable, doesn't mean the other is unsuitable or not as efficient( generally better r values)
plus the added extra of no taped joints, gaps, so a monolithic finish.

no point getting into debate about condensation either, unless you show a before and after hygrothermal calc, which generally shows less risk after installation when I've seen them.

I'm not saying every install will be correct, mineral wool batts are another example, not used in correct areas and they will allow water to bridge the cavity to the internal wall, so you wouldn't use in coastal, high exposure etc.

each type of insulation has its place.


this is well of topic for the op,



i still say if there are no issues, you have the paperwork, then leave in place.

You can't seriously compare a loose PIR board with spray foam insulation. It's not the foam material itself that's the problem (although the fact that it's flammable isn't a great idea!) - it's the fact that it's permanently fixed to roof layers that will need to be replaced in the future, that it's used in areas that aren't necessary to have insulation, and that the spray insulation in those areas is actually harmful to the building fabric.

Installing insulation both at ceiling level and pitched roof level is considered a hybrid roof design under BS5250. A correctly completed interstitual condensation calculation will always show a high risk in this hybrid situation - the solution is then to introduce further ventilation to the roof space, which competely defeats the point of the spray foam insulation. Much cheaper to make sure that bathrooms have extracts to outside and the ceiling is insulated with suitable thickness of quilt - the loft should be cold and dry, and moisture dealt with at source.  

Yes, coastal areas and high exposure areas may need a clear cavity to deal with water ingress, but no one is going to use spray foam in that situation so not relevant. There are enough NHBC approved solutions for those conditions, using proper insulation materials.

I just can't think of any justifiable reason for using spray foam insulation in a domestic roof space. It's 100% clear to me that it should never be used, and the Government made a huge mistake including it in the Green Homes Grant scheme. The quicker this part of the industry gets shut down the better.

Section62

Screwloose_2 said:

for example if you had some plumbing work done, then it leaked. this doesn't mean all plumbing is bad, it just means you had a bad plumber.

If the plumber installed a potable water supply using lead pipe then it wouldn't just be the plumber that was the problem.  Not that there is a problem with lead as a water conduit per se, just that it is completely inappropriate for potable water.

Saying there is nothing wrong with spray foam (in some situations) doesn't mean it is Ok as a retrofit insulation in the lofts of domestic dwellings.

Screwloose_2 said:

this is well of topic for the op,

Given the original OP was here in 2021, and the most recent forum member asking the question came back in August this year to say they had now had their spray foam removed, then it isn't clear what the purpose today's resurrection of the thread is?

Screwloose_2 said:

i still say if there are no issues, you have the paperwork, then leave in place.

One of the fundamental issues with spray foam is in the difficulty of observing the fabric of the roof to see whether there are issues with it... so "no issues" in this situation is not very helpful.  It is chicken and egg, unless the foam is removed there may be problems that can't be seen.  Saying leave it in place if there are no issues means potential problems will go undiscovered until the costs of repair are greater than if the problem is detected much earlier.

As for "paperwork", if the rest of the world has moved on and considers spray foam to be an issue then there is little comfort having any paperwork for it.  If mortgage lenders have a policy of not lending on a property with spray foam and are not interested in seeing "paperwork" telling them their policy is wrong then it is false hope to cling on to the paperwork and assume that when you come to sell everything will be fine.

I'm not suggesting that people need to rush to remove the stuff asap, but it is wrong for the 'industry' to market this stuff to people as a wonder solution and pretend everything will be Ok if they give you a meaningless scrap of paper.

FreeBear

ComicGeek said:

Screwloose_2 said:

ComicGeek said:

Screwloose_2 said:

i would leave it for now, especially if you have a certified product, with all the paperwork, ie warranty, guarantees etc. 

probably need a bit more research, after there has been a lot of scaremongering and misinformation.

Why it is not necessary to remove spray foam - IMA

its the same as anything i see it,

for example if you had some plumbing work done, then it leaked. this doesn't mean all plumbing is bad, it just means you had a bad plumber.

 i work in the building industry, and foams of all descriptions and manufacturers are installed into every new build in the country with maybe a couple of exceptions.

From a so called 'association'  that website and articles are laughable, personally I think spray foam should be banned and any company/individual that sells it to home owners should be heavily fined and face the same criminal charges as fraudsters.

To take the plumber analogy, it's like a plumber using completely the wrong materials for the job when the right materials are already readily available and cheaper - charging you more to do the job, and then charging even more to correct their 'mistake'. 

Spray foam is nothing but a scam. And that's from someone who has worked in the building industry for 25+ years. The 'scaremongering' is needed as there are too many crooks willing to take advantage of people. In over 25 years of work, and hundreds of thousands of new builds that I've worked on and designed, never ever has any spray foam insulation been used - the above poster is talking nonsense.

It's on all of us to tell our neighbours and any vulnerable elderly in our neighbourhoods to avoid this, in the same way as any other scam.

people being scammed or overcharged or pressure sales again is a totally different subject, and not what the op asked.
and simply saying its a scam as you've been in the building industry a few years doesn't make it fact, its just your opinion.

Again in all trades there are people who charge a decent rate, and some that overcharge or even have people over, of course some may use cheaper materials, or materials not accredited or charge more or put where not suitable, however that should not tar all professional installers of approved and accredited products.


So how do you feel about Celotex, or Kingspan or others being installed into properties, ie roofs, walls and floors  ?

i think there needs better understanding sometimes of how products work. 

No, it's the wrong solution for residential homes, full stop. There is no justification for it for insulation purposes. The vast majority of roof spaces are constructed as cold roofs, ie the roof void is designed to be cold and ventilated, with insulation installed at ceiling level below only.

Spray foam is acceptable where the building has been designed from the outset to use the stuff. But few buildings in the UK are done that way. I'm with ComicGeek in that spray foam as a retrofit measure is bad and so are a growing number of mortgage providers.