Used car not legal

whatsthenews

Debated whether to post this on the consumer rights board or here. 
Younger family member purchased a vehicle from a dealer in March. It's a 2014 plate with about 45k on the clock. Modified/ tuned to Stage 3  (apologies if I get the terminology wrong)
Seemed fine. Given previous 2 MOT certificates which have the car dealer company name on them. Car came with a years warranty , which they've  actually made use of to replace the engine mounts. 
Car has failed it's MOT today. CO 2 emissions high. Reason - no Catalytic converter ie it's been removed. 
Been quoted £1200 to do the work required to pass the MOT. 
Has contacted the dealer re them paying for the work but the person they spoke to said they would have to speak to the owners. Is putting the request into an email. 
Looking for advice re next steps please?
Buyer travelled approx 300 miles to purchase the vehicle, but as it happens is on a 6 week training course within 100 miles ( although on the opposite side of London , so still possibly 2-3 hrs depending on timing and traffic conditions) at the moment . 

Ebe_Scrooge

Seems to me there are 2 possibilities here.  Either, the original MOT was "dodgy", i.e. carried out by the dealer who sold it, and they just passed the car because they wanted to sell it.  Or, the cat has been stolen since the car was purchased.  I know that cat theft is quite a thing, they are worth a fair amount of money.

The problem you're going to have is in proving that the cat was missing at the time of purchase (and, by extension, that the original MOT was dodgy).  I don't really see how you'd prove that.

A slight aside - you do realise that you should have notified your insurance that the car had been modified, and wasn't factory-standard?

whatsthenews

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Seems to me there are 2 possibilities here.  Either, the original MOT was "dodgy", i.e. carried out by the dealer who sold it, and they just passed the car because they wanted to sell it.  Or, the cat has been stolen since the car was purchased.  I know that cat theft is quite a thing, they are worth a fair amount of money.

The problem you're going to have is in proving that the cat was missing at the time of purchase (and, by extension, that the original MOT was dodgy).  I don't really see how you'd prove that.

A slight aside - you do realise that you should have notified your insurance that the car had been modified, and wasn't factory-standard?

Insurance company are aware of the modifications. I would think the MOT is dodgy but not sure if it would be possible for the vehicle to ever have passed the emissions test without a CAT.
Re theft, yes I suppose so, but is someone going to steal a CAT from a 2014 petrol vehicle?

The dealer has replied and said little except  that the vehicle was sold as " ideal as a track vehicle"
They say if owner can get a quote for fitting a used CAT then they may be able to come up with some cash as a "goodwill" gesture. 

AdrianC

whatsthenews said:

Younger family member purchased a vehicle from a dealer in March. It's a 2014 plate with about 45k on the clock. Modified/ tuned to Stage 3  (apologies if I get the terminology wrong)

Was the car tuned before or after purchase?

Seemed fine. Given previous 2 MOT certificates which have the car dealer company name on them. Car came with a years warranty , which they've  actually made use of to replace the engine mounts. 
Car has failed it's MOT today. CO 2 emissions high.

CO, not CO2.

One of the jobs of a cat is to oxidise carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide.
Two things are measured on the MOT emission test - carbon monoxide and unburnt hydrocarbons.

Reason - no Catalytic converter ie it's been removed. 

Yes, likely deliberately removed as part of the tuning.

It's quite likely that it was modified to have a straight pipe, which can easily be swapped for a cat for the test - but the cat has been misplaced somewhere along the line.

But if there's no cat at all, then the fail wouldn't be on emissions, but on missing emissions equipment. So is there a cat, which has simply failed?

Been quoted £1200 to do the work required to pass the MOT.

That sounds ridiculously high.

A universal cat can easily be <£100.

It may require a bit of work to weld it into the exhaust, but no more than an hour or two.
https://www.profusionexhausts.com/sports-cats/

Buyer travelled approx 300 miles to purchase the vehicle

Such was, of course, his decision - and affects his consumer rights not one bit.

If he wants recourse to the vendor, he takes the car back to the vendor.

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Seems to me there are 2 possibilities here.  Either, the original MOT was "dodgy", i.e. carried out by the dealer who sold it, and they just passed the car because they wanted to sell it.  Or, the cat has been stolen since the car was purchased.  I know that cat theft is quite a thing, they are worth a fair amount of money.

There's a third - the most likely. The cat was present for the MOT last year, and removed afterwards.

I can't see many cat thieves fitting a straight pipe in its place, so the theft would leave a big gap in the exhaust system, rather obvious the instant the engine is started.

whatsthenews

No mod's done since purchase. Understand 300 miles is irrelevant re consumer rights , just mentioned because it's not so easy to rock up at the dealers with the vehicle.
 If it's so easy to put the CAT back in for the MOT why ( when they're a dealer  trying to sell the vehicle) remove it again after the MOT?  From what I've read it requires a Sports CAT. 

AdrianC

whatsthenews said:

If it's so easy to put the CAT back in for the MOT why ( when they're a dealer  trying to sell the vehicle) remove it again after the MOT?

Perhaps the previous owner didn't put it in the boot, and it's lurking still at their house?
Perhaps the previous owner did, but the garage put it on one side while valeting the car, and forgot to pass it on?

From what I've read it requires a Sports CAT.

It requires a cat.

"Sports" cat is a fairly meaningless term that just carries marketing promises of being more free-flowing than a vanilla one.

That link I posted? They're billed as "sports".

whatsthenews

AdrianC said:

whatsthenews said:

If it's so easy to put the CAT back in for the MOT why ( when they're a dealer  trying to sell the vehicle) remove it again after the MOT?

Perhaps the previous owner didn't put it in the boot, and it's lurking still at their house?
Perhaps the previous owner did, but the garage put it on one side while valeting the car, and forgot to pass it on?

From what I've read it requires a Sports CAT.

It requires a cat.

"Sports" cat is a fairly meaningless term that just carries marketing promises of being more free-flowing than a vanilla one.

That link I posted? They're billed as "sports".

Sorry. Forgot you'd posted the link. If anyone's in the Staines  area could they recommend a mechanic to get a quote from ? The place that quoted £1200 said the exhaust  system was never designed to have a CAT and that it wouldn't be possible for anyone to put a CAT into the system just for an MOT. As far as we were aware (from the dealer  and from messaging the previous owner) the dealer didn't do any of the mod's.  Because they produced a current   MOT certificate the presumption was made that it had a CAT and  was road legal. 
Booked in for the work as currently no access to another vehicle and doesn't want to risk being without a car for commuting to work. Difficult when you don't know the area or anyone who's local to recommend anywhere. 

AdrianC

whatsthenews said:

The place that quoted £1200 said the exhaust  system was never designed to have a CAT and that it wouldn't be possible for anyone to put a CAT into the system just for an MOT.

OK, so it's not got a removable one.
Perhaps the previous owner put the original exhaust back on for the test.

All a garage would need to do is to cut a section out of the exhaust, and fit the cat in. Either weld directly, or weld flanges and bolt in. Really not a huge job for anybody who knows how to weld an exhaust.

If he's struggling with the concepts of such basic stuff, I would respectfully suggest that the challenges inherently involved in running a highly modified car may not be for him.

Booked in for the work as currently no access to another vehicle and doesn't want to risk being without a car for commuting to work.

A cynic may note that the car is no more nor less legal to drive than it has been the entire time he's been driving it up until now.

born_again

What is the date of the last MOT compared to when your Younger family member bought the car?

whatsthenews

born_again said:

What is the date of the last MOT compared to when your Younger family member bought the car?

Purchased March 2021. Last MOT was Oct 12th 2020. 

NSG666

Might be better trying on the consumer rights board.
If everything you and younger relative are saying is true then this car was sold to you with a defect which at MOT is classed as 'major'. Whether it was legal at the time of the 2020 mot is probably not relevant to the case but the fact that the selling dealer is also an mot test station does mean they had the skill and ability to check out the road-worthiness of the vehicle and emissions prior to sale.
In my non-legal opinion that should be rectified entirely at the expense of the selling dealer but I don't count.
Even on the CR board you might get conflicting views and it's difficult to determine who actually knows how to apply the relevant law as opposed to think they know.