Dementia - Thanks for all the replies

MalMonroe

KxMx said:

Don't be so sure he'll be transferred to a home, especially if he can't pay. 

My friend has POA for her Grandad with dementia, social services insist he is fine with home care, every other agency involved says he needs a care home, but because he has no assets to pay ss strangely enough say he is fit to stay where he is.

They have been through the financial situation of not only him but his children and even grandchildren, because they are desperate for someone else to take responsibility/pay.

They even tried to argue a son in law should pay from proceeds of a business in his own name...

My friend is now basically waiting for a major crisis (because all the minor ones didn't help) to happen so social services will finally move him into a care home. 

But every individual case is assessed on its own merits.

The OP's father-in-law has a property to sell and so could afford care home costs for a while and then the local authority should step in. It seems as if he has been trying - and failing - to manage on his own, so any help at all would be a step up for him, even if it's care at home. His daughter may have to support him more than she has been doing so far but the OP is in Scotland, quite a way from the estranged father-in-law. 

No-one else in a family should be asked to pay care home fees as they are not responsible for the cost.

KxMx

I completely agree that OP has no responsibility or obligation here and agree that no families should be asked to pay for care, but in practice it can and does happen. 

I wasn't suggesting someone get POA for him because yes obviously it is too late, I was just sharing the experience of my friend and how the things that should happen sometimes don't. I've certainly had my eyes opened. 

There will be financial assessments as part of the process so they will uncover his position as to mortgage etc.

I hope for his sake he is treated better than my friends grandfather, and if he is found to have financial means then the path should be much smoother. 

Flugelhorn

my experience is that they set up the care and then look at the ways in which it will be paid for

Ms_Chocaholic

KxMx said:

Don't be so sure he'll be transferred to a home, especially if he can't pay. 

My friend has POA for her Grandad with dementia, social services insist he is fine with home care, every other agency involved says he needs a care home, but because he has no assets to pay ss strangely enough say he is fit to stay where he is.

They have been through the financial situation of not only him but his children and even grandchildren, because they are desperate for someone else to take responsibility/pay.

They even tried to argue a son in law should pay from proceeds of a business in his own name...

My friend is now basically waiting for a major crisis (because all the minor ones didn't help) to happen so social services will finally move him into a care home. 

I will PM you.

elsien

Flugelhorn said:

my experience is that they set up the care and then look at the ways in which it will be paid for

This.
In England the care needs assessment is completed and the level of support assessed before any financial assessment takes place.  For people who lack capacity, the least restrictive option (ie staying at home) is considered first but if the burdens outweigh the benefits then other options such as housing with care/residential are next in the list. 

Decisions about home vs residential are not based on assets/ability to pay.
I am currently working with a lady with equity release loans potentially leaving her with very little: the decision has been made that only residential care can meet her needs, the local authority will pay until a court of protection application can be made to sort out what she may or may not have.
There is no obligation on family (although the local authority do tend to hope that someone will step up to sort things out/empty the house etc); any third party top ups for care home fees are voluntary and family who are unable or unwilling to help out cannot be forced to pay. 

Gavin83

KxMx said:

Don't be so sure he'll be transferred to a home, especially if he can't pay. 

My friend has POA for her Grandad with dementia, social services insist he is fine with home care, every other agency involved says he needs a care home, but because he has no assets to pay ss strangely enough say he is fit to stay where he is.

They have been through the financial situation of not only him but his children and even grandchildren, because they are desperate for someone else to take responsibility/pay.

They even tried to argue a son in law should pay from proceeds of a business in his own name...

My friend is now basically waiting for a major crisis (because all the minor ones didn't help) to happen so social services will finally move him into a care home. 

I don’t think your friend has understood the situation or has misinterpreted what’s happened. The council don’t assess the finances of family and they have no access to this information either. They will of course assess the finances of the resident themselves but that’s completely separate.

I expect what’s actually happened is the family feel he should be in a care home and the council don’t. The family have pushed it and the councils response is along the lines of “if you want him in a care home then you’ll need to pay for it.”

This is one of the disadvantages of relying on the council to fund your care and why it’s a bad idea to dispose of assets. You’re at the mercy of the councils care assessments and their requirements for a care home placement are often far more strict than the family feel it should be. It’s almost unheard of for someone to go into care without significant home care avenues having been exhausted first.

elsien

Also to add, it’s a separate team to the care needs assessment team who do the financial assessment,  to further ensure no conflict of interest. 

Gavin83

elsien said:

Also to add, it’s a separate team to the care needs assessment team who do the financial assessment,  to further ensure no conflict of interest. 

I’ll second everything elsien has said.

I used to work in the financial assessment team in my local council. They’d be a team who dealt with the care assessments, plus it would go to a panel, then us doing the financial assessments plus another team who would find appropriate care homes to send to the families. The care assessments would be the first element completed and no financial assessment would take place until it was determined a care home placement was required. It wasn’t at all unusual that the financial assessment would take place after the resident was already placed.

As mentioned in my previous post you’d often get conflict between families who felt a care home placement was required and the council who didn’t. Self funders on the other hand can effectively get placed whenever they wish, a care home will rarely turn a paying resident away.

We used to get a lot of conflict around the financial assessments themselves too, normally from families who tried to retain assets but that’s another subject entirely!

KxMx

I can assure you that my friend did not misinterprate what has gone on with her Grandad.

Social services in this case did indeed do financial assessments into the wider family beyond the gentleman himself. 

Yes the family feels he needs a care home, as does his GP and two other agencies involved in the situation.

Just because it is outside your experience doesn't mean the situation isn't as I recounted it. Some local councils are better than others. Sometimes rules and guidelines are bent. 

elsien

KxMx said:

I can assure you that my friend did not misinterprate what has gone on with her Grandad.

Social services in this case did indeed do financial assessments into the wider family beyond the gentleman himself. 

Yes the family feels he needs a care home, as does his GP and two other agencies involved in the situation.

Just because it is outside your experience doesn't mean the situation isn't as I recounted it. Some local councils are better than others. Sometimes rules and guidelines are bent. 

Then the family in question could make a formal complaint because that is unlawful. And they have no obligation to share any information or to agree to pay any third party top up.

With regards to the specific decision around care, If the person has capacity it is their decision as to where they live, regardless of what family or professionals think may be best for them. 
If they lack capacity and there is no power of attorney/health and welfare deputyship, then it is a best interests decision with the funding authority (usually the LA unless there are a lot of health needs) being the decision maker but taking other views (the person, family, other professionals) into account. With, as already said, staying at home being the first option to be considered unless there are very good reasons why not.