Unsecured debts on late mum’s estate without loan agreements.

Abbotacus

My late mum passed away leaving a couple of credit card debts, the debts have been passed on from debt collection company to debt collection company.

I have asked the Phillips and Cohen, the latest DCC, to provide me with the original loan agreements so I may check the terms and conditions for insurance and assurances that may pertain to the death of the borrower and a detailed break down of repayments. 

They have been unable to provide me with either.

My question is do I need to repay the debts having not been provided with any tangible proof that these debts actually exist?

[Deleted User]

If you doubt the validity of the debts, you can ask for evidence. It won't be the originals, but will be reconstituted version of the agreements. It they can't evidence it, the debt will be unenforceable until they can. What has their response been to date?

They won't have details of any insurance policy as that will be with a separate company, so you'll need to do some digging if you think she had one you could claim on.

Abbotacus

They have ignored my requests for the documentation, it's been several months since I requested them.

They were able to provide the agreement for a personal loan, but not for the CC debts.

They wrote to me last week to discuss the accounts with a view to repayment. I'll repay the personal loan, but I'm tempted to wait for the requested documentation until i repay the CC - if they ever sent it.

They will presumably have problems legally enforcing debts without evidence.

born_again

Does the estate have funds to pay the debt back?

Brie

You are not obliged to pay her debts yourself.  If the estate has nothing there is nothing that can be paid back.

Abbotacus

In theory the estate does have sufficient funds, there is a property but a disabled sibling lived with mum and still lives there,

I don't really think they are up to the move so will have to pay the debts myself if they need to be paid.

MalMonroe

Abbotacus said:

In theory the estate does have sufficient funds, there is a property but a disabled sibling lived with mum and still lives there,

I don't really think they are up to the move so will have to pay the debts myself if they need to be paid.

Hi, I'm very sorry for your loss. No you won't have to pay the debts. They are not in your name. 

Before you start paying out, you really do need to either contact a solicitor or Citizens Advice (the latter offer free advice).  

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

There's some information here -

https://www.moneysupermarket.com/life-insurance/what-happens-to-debt-when-someone-dies/

also here -

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/fact-sheet-library/debts-after-death-ew/

It goes without saying that you should never pay anyone anything if they have no proof that anything is owing.

born_again

Abbotacus said:

In theory the estate does have sufficient funds, there is a property but a disabled sibling lived with mum and still lives there,

I don't really think they are up to the move so will have to pay the debts myself if they need to be paid.

Was there a will?

YOU should not be paying anything for unsecured debts. As the debtor is dead. (sorry for the loss) They could try claiming against the estate, but most would not bother. (does not look good)
It seems odd that CC debt has been passed onto a debt recovery co. As they are usually written off once they are aware that the estate will not cover them.

Were the companies informed at the point of death & advised that there were no funds in the estate?

y3sitsm3

born_again said:

Abbotacus said:

In theory the estate does have sufficient funds, there is a property but a disabled sibling lived with mum and still lives there,

I don't really think they are up to the move so will have to pay the debts myself if they need to be paid.

Was there a will?

YOU should not be paying anything for unsecured debts. As the debtor is dead. (sorry for the loss) They could try claiming against the estate, but most would not bother. (does not look good)
It seems odd that CC debt has been passed onto a debt recovery co. As they are usually written off once they are aware that the estate will not cover them.

Were the companies informed at the point of death & advised that there were no funds in the estate?

There are funds in the estate, there's a house.

born_again

y3sitsm3 said:

There are funds in the estate, there's a house.

Then OP would be best taking proper legal advice given these are unsecured loans & has not come back on the point of is there a will.
A unsecured loan is just that. 

https://www.stepchange.org/debt-info/bereavement-and-debt.aspx

IanManc

born_again said:

y3sitsm3 said:

There are funds in the estate, there's a house.

Then OP would be best taking proper legal advice given these are unsecured loans & has not come back on the point of is there a will.
A unsecured loan is just that. 

https://www.stepchange.org/debt-info/bereavement-and-debt.aspx

An unsecured loan is still a debt which needs to be paid out of the estate. There is a house in the estate, asm@y3sitsm3 has already pointed out, so the estate is solvent and debts can be paid out of it.

For the house to be dealt with, either by sale or transfer, then there will either have to be the issue of a Grant of Probate or of Letters of Administration to appoint an executor or administrator to act. The duty of that person is to administer the estate according to the law, and they have to pay the debts and testamentary expenses, leaving the amount available for distribution to the beneficiaries.

The fact that the debt is "unsecured" doesn't alter the fact that it needs to be paid, and if the executor or administrator distributes the proceeds of a solvent estate - which this one is - without settling the debts and expenses then they can become personally liable for those debts and expenses, due to their maladministration of the estate.

The OP could try to obtain details of the institutions with which the original credit card debts were run up, to see if there was any insurance policy in force, but it is very unlikely nowadays as PPI isn't sold with credit cards, and hasn't been for years. Also, the debt collection agency ought to be able to tell the OP which card companies originally held the debt, how much it was for when they took it on and what fees if any have been added since, and details of the contact they had made with the deceased in their attempts to pursue the debts. They must have some records.

Credit card debts do not die when the person who incurred them dies, and debts that have been passed on to credit agencies don't die in those circumstances either. 

When Probate or Letters of Administration are granted the size of the estate becomes public knowledge, and any suggestion that creditors simply won't bother is just plain wrong. Banks, card companies and debt collection agencies won't walk away from debts owed by solvent estates. It is normal for them pursue the executors or administrators for the debt, and there is no reason for them not to.