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LBC - I wouldn't even call the car parked, rather "stopped".

1235

Comments

  • Johnersh
    Johnersh Posts: 1,573 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Does the sign say exactly what they've said it does in correspondence to the MP?

    It seems to me its not a parking charge at all but an impossible contract term. Like in pace v lengyl. 

    It... 
    1. Places you at immediate breach coming onto the land if permits can only be obtained in advance and electronically registered (arguably it is a sign which dresses up as contract what is in fact a possible trespass claim, and which only a landowner has authority to pursue) 
    2. It is impossible to acquire a permit not being a resident and there are no details of how to acquire one as a visitor
    3. You were not permitted time to park, read the signs, return to the car and leave without incurring a charge - although this point is always one for argument 


  • MoneySavingClown
    MoneySavingClown Posts: 28 Forumite
    Second Anniversary 10 Posts
    edited 29 September 2021 at 8:50PM
    The car hasn't been there for years, so I would assume so. It is impossible and even if you leave they're going to charge you anyway. I have requested the original copies of the images held in relation to my car. Let's see if they try to take 30 days to respond to that.

    I wouldn't mind some advice on this argument: The original plan was to say that the driver was still in the car, had not got out, and was not stopped long enough to read the terms in any case. However, if their code of practice is enforceable, (that the motorist is deemed to have accepted the terms immediately by remaining on the land without reading the signage), can it not be argued that leaving the area is indication that the terms were met as the motorist decided not to remain on the private land?

    If all they have are photos spaced 2 minutes apart, they don't have any evidence to show when the driver left. But it surely it is evidence that they haven't allowed a reasonable consideration period.

    I am not sure if the phone GPS records are evidence enough of leaving the area. The phone records show the driver leaving 5 minutes after the first photo, 3 minutes after the second photo. It also shows the time of arrival (1 minute before the first photo).

    Also, should I ignore the follow-up emails from the solicitors? -https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78640087/#Comment_78640087
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 155,731 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Yes you can argue that the driver left, after realising the car park was run by a notorious ex clamper and after a couple of minutes finding a sign and trying to read the minuscule t&cs he decided to leave without accepting any parking contract.

    This is conduct that cannot be penalised and would be allowable under any reasonable interpretation of the test of fairness and 'open dealing' with consumers, as set out in the Consumer Rights Act 2015.  In addition, both the IPC and BPA codes of practice cover this situation (quote the right one) and so does the new statutory Code of Practice proposed by the DLUHC as part of the raft of changes coming in next year under the Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • The sign was next to the car in the pictures, literally on the pole next to the car. It's possible the driver could not have seen it from their sitting position as it's over the car.

    I think the fact that the IPC Code of Practice doesn't mention a specific time limit for the consideration period leaves it too open for interpretation, but if they want to take it further it will be an argument :)

    I really do appreciate the shift you all put in here, thanks again!
  • Update. I hope I'm doing okay?
    I note from the screenshots of your system that you hold images of the vehicle on each parking charge case. Please can you send the original copies of those to me also

    PPC DPO said:
    We have provided you with copies of the original digital photos uploaded to our system by the warden, albeit with any third-party data redacted such as images of identifiable third parties in the photos because you are not entitled to receive such data within a DSAR. Please see the document ‘MEH.pdf’ for the images for each PCN.

    MoneySavingClown said:
    I’d like the original jpg files please. It is data pertaining to the vehicle and should be part of the subject access request.

    I can see that you have a record of them as I can see their file names, and I would like those files and not screenshots of them or copies of them pasted into another document. The screenshots you have sent me are unidentifiable and you cannot read the VRN on the car.

    In particular I would like the files named below under PCN Ref: xxx
    • xx.jpg
    • xx.jpg
    I also note that the case makes reference to being passed to Trace and Gladestones, and receiving information from the DVLA.

    Please can you forward me those communications and any other internal emails with reference to me or my vehicle, as per my subject access request.

    Please let me know if there will be any delays in this - I am happy for you to forward the information that is more readily available and not wait for all relevant files to be ready before it is sent. Please can you prioritise the images I’ve requested above.
    Question: How illegal is it for them not to provide the data, and would the failure of them meeting the data laws affect a a debt claim court case?
  • MoneySavingClown
    MoneySavingClown Posts: 28 Forumite
    Second Anniversary 10 Posts
    edited 30 September 2021 at 1:11PM
    We have provided you will all the data we hold for you, complying with our obligations under the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) fully. Any data sent to and received from external parties and agents, such as the DVLA, Trace Recovery and Gladstones Solicitors, is extracted from and uploaded to our operating system, of which we have provided you with full copies. It is an automated extraction and upload process, which isn’t searchable. Even if it were, the data contained would be a duplication of the data we have provided to you, as explained above.

    If you wish to make a DSAR to the above organisations and companies, we have included their email addresses below for your convenience:

    SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gov.uk

    dpo@tracerecovery.co.uk

    dataprotectionofficer@gladstonessolicitors.co.uk

    In regard to the Parking Contravention images, these have been included in our response to your Data Subject Access Request (DSAR). We cannot send you the jpg files because they contain third party data, which you are not entitled to receive as part of a DSAR. This is why we have copied the Parking Contravention images into an Adobe document and redacted any third-party data. We have attached a further copy of the images enlarged so that you can see them better – again, with any third-party data redacted.

    We hope this helps.

    To reiterate, if you are dissatisfied with our response to your DSAR you have the right to raise a complaint with the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) via https://ico.org.uk/make-a-complaint/.
    What third party data would stop them from sending me an image of the vehicle? Should they not make an effort to redact any information I'm not entitled to? To be fair, the enlarged copies of the picture can make out the VRN even if it is blotchy. You can also see the window is open with the driver's arm hanging out of the window.

    My initial reaction is to let them know that I will be making a complaint to the ICO as they're refusing my data.

    Do I just wait for the next step (which I'm going to have to check the Newbies thread for)?
  • Just a small update:

    I've received another text from the solicitors telling me to pay up.

    I've also received a letter stating court proceedings are imminent. Are they going to send threatening letters and texts periodically until they take it to court? I am slightly concerned that all their correspondence reaches me almost a week after they have dated it. Will it eat into any statutory time I have to make official replies in the future?

    Also, they mention my lack of engagement. I emailed Gladstones to put it on hold and received an acknowledgement email on 14 September. Have I forgotten to do anything?


  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 43,788 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    That looks like the 30 days' hold, required for debt advice, has ended. They can now go ahead with suing in the county court. Check your mail each day. 
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Thanks, I will do. This letter came through my letterbox today but dated a week ago.
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 59,481 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    With regards to withholding your data, they are not permitted to do so, but they are prohibited from providing images that reveal someone else's personal data such as another VRM. 
    They should of course redact other people's personal data, but must provide yours. Have they at any time provided an image of the vehicle windscreen clearly showing that there was no permit on display? I suspect not as the driver would have seen the parking operative taking photos and driven off.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
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