Right to cancel order of lithium batteries bought online

neilmcl

Undervalued said:

SimonABA said:

MarvinDay said:

gettingtheresometime said:

I seem to recall UPS accepted a parcel containing an item with a lithium battery

Sending an package containing a lithium battery in domestic UK mail or with some couriers  is normally fine provided that:
1/ The battery is in good condition and not damaged or faulty,
2/ The battery or batteries are installed in equipment or are spares to power it,
3/ the guidelines for the number of spares, their power and their weight is adhered to and
4/ the package is correctly marked and labelled according to the requirements of the shipping company.

Yup perfectly fine, apart from being illegal, dangerous, irresponsible and impossible to find a courier or postal service that will accept a lithium battery unless you lie by saying it's not a battery and so risk prosecution and having the battery destroyed.

OK it is legal to send a lithium battery installed in equipment but that is not really relevant to this thread which is to warn people of the difficulty of returning a standalone battery.

I presume you've never actually posted or sent a standalone battery.  If I'm wrong please let me know who accepted it.

I buy quite a few such batteries and as far as I know the suppliers are only able to "ship" them by having a special arrangement with a particular courier firm. That covers how they are packed, labelled etc.

I have been told conflicting stories about whether they are able to arrange collection by the same firm. Some say yes, other no because they cannot confirm that they have be packed and labelled correctly.

So if your supplier says "no" then you reach an interesting catch 22. You have a right to return them and under some circumstances get the shipping costs refunded. However, as I understand it, you cannot force the supplier to arrange this leaving you with the difficulty of finding somebody who will carry them or even delivering them yourself.

Sadly I suspect your supplier knows this and is exploiting the loophole. They will no doubt argue that they are not breaching your consumer rights as they only have to provide a refund once you send them back. Yes, they may have to pay the reasonable cost but they are not obliged to arrange it.

I will be very interested to learn how this resolves.

Not much help I'm afraid!

They could argue that but they would be wrong if they haven't given the OP the information regarding the cost (and therefore the nature) of how to return such an item if it can't ordinarily be done via the post.

Undervalued

neilmcl said:

Undervalued said:

SimonABA said:

MarvinDay said:

gettingtheresometime said:

I seem to recall UPS accepted a parcel containing an item with a lithium battery

Sending an package containing a lithium battery in domestic UK mail or with some couriers  is normally fine provided that:
1/ The battery is in good condition and not damaged or faulty,
2/ The battery or batteries are installed in equipment or are spares to power it,
3/ the guidelines for the number of spares, their power and their weight is adhered to and
4/ the package is correctly marked and labelled according to the requirements of the shipping company.

Yup perfectly fine, apart from being illegal, dangerous, irresponsible and impossible to find a courier or postal service that will accept a lithium battery unless you lie by saying it's not a battery and so risk prosecution and having the battery destroyed.

OK it is legal to send a lithium battery installed in equipment but that is not really relevant to this thread which is to warn people of the difficulty of returning a standalone battery.

I presume you've never actually posted or sent a standalone battery.  If I'm wrong please let me know who accepted it.

I buy quite a few such batteries and as far as I know the suppliers are only able to "ship" them by having a special arrangement with a particular courier firm. That covers how they are packed, labelled etc.

I have been told conflicting stories about whether they are able to arrange collection by the same firm. Some say yes, other no because they cannot confirm that they have be packed and labelled correctly.

So if your supplier says "no" then you reach an interesting catch 22. You have a right to return them and under some circumstances get the shipping costs refunded. However, as I understand it, you cannot force the supplier to arrange this leaving you with the difficulty of finding somebody who will carry them or even delivering them yourself.

Sadly I suspect your supplier knows this and is exploiting the loophole. They will no doubt argue that they are not breaching your consumer rights as they only have to provide a refund once you send them back. Yes, they may have to pay the reasonable cost but they are not obliged to arrange it.

I will be very interested to learn how this resolves.

Not much help I'm afraid!

They could argue that but they would be wrong if they haven't given the OP the information regarding the cost (and therefore the nature) of how to return such an item if it can't ordinarily be done via the post.

That is interesting. Could you possibly cite the regulation that says they have to do that? 

As I mentioned, I buy these items from time to time and have heard of very differing levels of customer service when it comes to returns. One of the more reputable suppliers in my field states very clearly how to go about organising a return if necessary which is fine. Others don't and I have heard anecdotal accounts where it is easy to get the impression that the supplier is hiding behind the transport rules. Yes, if you find a way of getting the batteries back to them they will refund but that is all they offer. 

neilmcl

Undervalued said:

neilmcl said:

Undervalued said:

SimonABA said:

MarvinDay said:

gettingtheresometime said:

I seem to recall UPS accepted a parcel containing an item with a lithium battery

Sending an package containing a lithium battery in domestic UK mail or with some couriers  is normally fine provided that:
1/ The battery is in good condition and not damaged or faulty,
2/ The battery or batteries are installed in equipment or are spares to power it,
3/ the guidelines for the number of spares, their power and their weight is adhered to and
4/ the package is correctly marked and labelled according to the requirements of the shipping company.

Yup perfectly fine, apart from being illegal, dangerous, irresponsible and impossible to find a courier or postal service that will accept a lithium battery unless you lie by saying it's not a battery and so risk prosecution and having the battery destroyed.

OK it is legal to send a lithium battery installed in equipment but that is not really relevant to this thread which is to warn people of the difficulty of returning a standalone battery.

I presume you've never actually posted or sent a standalone battery.  If I'm wrong please let me know who accepted it.

I buy quite a few such batteries and as far as I know the suppliers are only able to "ship" them by having a special arrangement with a particular courier firm. That covers how they are packed, labelled etc.

I have been told conflicting stories about whether they are able to arrange collection by the same firm. Some say yes, other no because they cannot confirm that they have be packed and labelled correctly.

So if your supplier says "no" then you reach an interesting catch 22. You have a right to return them and under some circumstances get the shipping costs refunded. However, as I understand it, you cannot force the supplier to arrange this leaving you with the difficulty of finding somebody who will carry them or even delivering them yourself.

Sadly I suspect your supplier knows this and is exploiting the loophole. They will no doubt argue that they are not breaching your consumer rights as they only have to provide a refund once you send them back. Yes, they may have to pay the reasonable cost but they are not obliged to arrange it.

I will be very interested to learn how this resolves.

Not much help I'm afraid!

They could argue that but they would be wrong if they haven't given the OP the information regarding the cost (and therefore the nature) of how to return such an item if it can't ordinarily be done via the post.

That is interesting. Could you possibly cite the regulation that says they have to do that? 

As I mentioned, I buy these items from time to time and have heard of very differing levels of customer service when it comes to returns. One of the more reputable suppliers in my field states very clearly how to go about organising a return if necessary which is fine. Others don't and I have heard anecdotal accounts where it is easy to get the impression that the supplier is hiding behind the transport rules. Yes, if you find a way of getting the batteries back to them they will refund but that is all they offer. 

It's in Schedule 2 of the CCRs regarding the information required to be given prior to the contract.

"(m) where applicable, that the consumer will have to bear the cost of returning the goods in case of cancellation and, for distance contracts, if the goods, by their nature, cannot normally be returned by post, the cost of returning the goods;"

Manxman_in_exile

Undervalued said:

neilmcl said:

Undervalued said:

SimonABA said:

MarvinDay said:

gettingtheresometime said:

I seem to recall UPS accepted a parcel containing an item with a lithium battery

Sending an package containing a lithium battery in domestic UK mail or with some couriers  is normally fine provided that:
1/ The battery is in good condition and not damaged or faulty,
2/ The battery or batteries are installed in equipment or are spares to power it,
3/ the guidelines for the number of spares, their power and their weight is adhered to and
4/ the package is correctly marked and labelled according to the requirements of the shipping company.

Yup perfectly fine, apart from being illegal, dangerous, irresponsible and impossible to find a courier or postal service that will accept a lithium battery unless you lie by saying it's not a battery and so risk prosecution and having the battery destroyed.

OK it is legal to send a lithium battery installed in equipment but that is not really relevant to this thread which is to warn people of the difficulty of returning a standalone battery.

I presume you've never actually posted or sent a standalone battery.  If I'm wrong please let me know who accepted it.

I buy quite a few such batteries and as far as I know the suppliers are only able to "ship" them by having a special arrangement with a particular courier firm. That covers how they are packed, labelled etc.

I have been told conflicting stories about whether they are able to arrange collection by the same firm. Some say yes, other no because they cannot confirm that they have be packed and labelled correctly.

So if your supplier says "no" then you reach an interesting catch 22. You have a right to return them and under some circumstances get the shipping costs refunded. However, as I understand it, you cannot force the supplier to arrange this leaving you with the difficulty of finding somebody who will carry them or even delivering them yourself.

Sadly I suspect your supplier knows this and is exploiting the loophole. They will no doubt argue that they are not breaching your consumer rights as they only have to provide a refund once you send them back. Yes, they may have to pay the reasonable cost but they are not obliged to arrange it.

I will be very interested to learn how this resolves.

Not much help I'm afraid!

They could argue that but they would be wrong if they haven't given the OP the information regarding the cost (and therefore the nature) of how to return such an item if it can't ordinarily be done via the post.

That is interesting. Could you possibly cite the regulation that says they have to do that? 

...

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head linked to it in their post dated 13 September at 1:29pm didn't they?  Basically, if the goods can't "normally be returned by post" (in this case it would be illegal) and if the seller has not given the consumer information as to the cost of returning them (in the case of a distance sale) then the seller has to arrange for collection of the goods from the consumer.

I think the_lunatic and neilmcl are saying "That's it - game over in favour of the consumer!"  (That's presuming the seller has not told the OP the cost of returning the goods - which if they had, I don't think the OP would have had so much difficulty returning them?)

The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation.gov.uk)

The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation.gov.uk)

Undervalued

neilmcl said:

Undervalued said:

neilmcl said:

Undervalued said:

SimonABA said:

MarvinDay said:

gettingtheresometime said:

I seem to recall UPS accepted a parcel containing an item with a lithium battery

Sending an package containing a lithium battery in domestic UK mail or with some couriers  is normally fine provided that:
1/ The battery is in good condition and not damaged or faulty,
2/ The battery or batteries are installed in equipment or are spares to power it,
3/ the guidelines for the number of spares, their power and their weight is adhered to and
4/ the package is correctly marked and labelled according to the requirements of the shipping company.

Yup perfectly fine, apart from being illegal, dangerous, irresponsible and impossible to find a courier or postal service that will accept a lithium battery unless you lie by saying it's not a battery and so risk prosecution and having the battery destroyed.

OK it is legal to send a lithium battery installed in equipment but that is not really relevant to this thread which is to warn people of the difficulty of returning a standalone battery.

I presume you've never actually posted or sent a standalone battery.  If I'm wrong please let me know who accepted it.

I buy quite a few such batteries and as far as I know the suppliers are only able to "ship" them by having a special arrangement with a particular courier firm. That covers how they are packed, labelled etc.

I have been told conflicting stories about whether they are able to arrange collection by the same firm. Some say yes, other no because they cannot confirm that they have be packed and labelled correctly.

So if your supplier says "no" then you reach an interesting catch 22. You have a right to return them and under some circumstances get the shipping costs refunded. However, as I understand it, you cannot force the supplier to arrange this leaving you with the difficulty of finding somebody who will carry them or even delivering them yourself.

Sadly I suspect your supplier knows this and is exploiting the loophole. They will no doubt argue that they are not breaching your consumer rights as they only have to provide a refund once you send them back. Yes, they may have to pay the reasonable cost but they are not obliged to arrange it.

I will be very interested to learn how this resolves.

Not much help I'm afraid!

They could argue that but they would be wrong if they haven't given the OP the information regarding the cost (and therefore the nature) of how to return such an item if it can't ordinarily be done via the post.

That is interesting. Could you possibly cite the regulation that says they have to do that? 

As I mentioned, I buy these items from time to time and have heard of very differing levels of customer service when it comes to returns. One of the more reputable suppliers in my field states very clearly how to go about organising a return if necessary which is fine. Others don't and I have heard anecdotal accounts where it is easy to get the impression that the supplier is hiding behind the transport rules. Yes, if you find a way of getting the batteries back to them they will refund but that is all they offer. 

It's in Schedule 2 of the CCRs regarding the information required to be given prior to the contract.

"(m) where applicable, that the consumer will have to bear the cost of returning the goods in case of cancellation and, for distance contracts, if the goods, by their nature, cannot normally be returned by post, the cost of returning the goods;"

OK, thanks.

However, I suspect this is an oddity that the regulation wasn't really intended to property address. The cost is fairly minimal and just what you would expect for something of a similar weight, it is just that many / most carriers are choosing to duck out of carrying them except for regular clients. Maybe one or two will, I have not needed to try hard to find one?

What is not obvious is if a carrier won't accept one booked directly by the consumer, why are they willing to if the supplier arranges collection from the consumer when they have no means of knowing it it has been safely packed?

SimonABA

Undervalued said:

SimonABA said:

MarvinDay said:

gettingtheresometime said:

I seem to recall UPS accepted a parcel containing an item with a lithium battery

Sending an package containing a lithium battery in domestic UK mail or with some couriers  is normally fine provided that:
1/ The battery is in good condition and not damaged or faulty,
2/ The battery or batteries are installed in equipment or are spares to power it,
3/ the guidelines for the number of spares, their power and their weight is adhered to and
4/ the package is correctly marked and labelled according to the requirements of the shipping company.

Yup perfectly fine, apart from being illegal, dangerous, irresponsible and impossible to find a courier or postal service that will accept a lithium battery unless you lie by saying it's not a battery and so risk prosecution and having the battery destroyed.

OK it is legal to send a lithium battery installed in equipment but that is not really relevant to this thread which is to warn people of the difficulty of returning a standalone battery.

I presume you've never actually posted or sent a standalone battery.  If I'm wrong please let me know who accepted it.

I buy quite a few such batteries and as far as I know the suppliers are only able to "ship" them by having a special arrangement with a particular courier firm. That covers how they are packed, labelled etc.

I have been told conflicting stories about whether they are able to arrange collection by the same firm. Some say yes, other no because they cannot confirm that they have be packed and labelled correctly.

So if your supplier says "no" then you reach an interesting catch 22. You have a right to return them and under some circumstances get the shipping costs refunded. However, as I understand it, you cannot force the supplier to arrange this leaving you with the difficulty of finding somebody who will carry them or even delivering them yourself.

Sadly I suspect your supplier knows this and is exploiting the loophole. They will no doubt argue that they are not breaching your consumer rights as they only have to provide a refund once you send them back. Yes, they may have to pay the reasonable cost but they are not obliged to arrange it.

I will be very interested to learn how this resolves.

Not much help I'm afraid!

You have understood and described exactly the problem.   The customer is reliant on the supplier organising the return, albeit at the customer's expense if the goods are not faulty, when the supplier has no incentive to play ball.  Trading Standards may say, as they did to me, that my rights should not be affected and neilmcl may say that the supplier should advise customers of the cost and method of return, but if the supplier refuses to do anything then you are a bit stuck as I was.

Hence my warning to anyone thinking of buying a 'dangerous item' that they should check how to return in case they want to cancel the order.

And by the way, 'dangerous goods' and 'prohibited items' covers a lot more ordinary household things than just  batteries.    You could come unstuck buying for example, aerosols, liqueurs, aftershave, solvent paint or a cigarette lighters.

SimonABA

Thank you neilmcl and Manxman_in_exile.   I have sent the quoted regulations to Amazon who not only have given me a full refund but have also given me an extra £40 and more significantly have promised to review the information they give in Amazon Marketplace in the light of those regulations - Result

Undervalued

SimonABA said:

Thank you neilmcl and Manxman_in_exile.   I have sent the quoted regulations to Amazon who not only have given me a full refund but have also given me an extra £40 and more significantly have promised to review the information they give in Amazon Marketplace in the light of those regulations - Result

Interesting that it is Amazon.

I had a faulty small lead acid battery from them about a year ago. As soon as I contacted them, by phone if I remember correctly, they immediately refunded and said there was no need to return the faulty one.

SimonABA

Undervalued said:

SimonABA said:

Thank you neilmcl and Manxman_in_exile.   I have sent the quoted regulations to Amazon who not only have given me a full refund but have also given me an extra £40 and more significantly have promised to review the information they give in Amazon Marketplace in the light of those regulations - Result

Interesting that it is Amazon.

I had a faulty small lead acid battery from them about a year ago. As soon as I contacted them, by phone if I remember correctly, they immediately refunded and said there was no need to return the faulty one.

Yes that is their policy but in my case:
a) it was not faulty (I just ordered the wrong one) and
b) it was Amazon Marketplace and not Amazon, so Amazon just left it all to the seller (BattPit aka Win Eternal Tech Ltd) who refused to collect or refund.   

Amazon Marketplace is very different to Amazon and is a means that Amazon uses to get out of being responsible.   The majority of items bought on Amazon are now Marketplace and not Amazon but you have to look quite carefully to tell.   

Amazon say they are just a platform introducing buyers to sellers and not a trader, though earlier this year an appeals court in California ruled that Amazon can be held liable for products sold through its marketplace by a third-party seller.   

y3sitsm3

SimonABA said:

Undervalued said:

SimonABA said:

Thank you neilmcl and Manxman_in_exile.   I have sent the quoted regulations to Amazon who not only have given me a full refund but have also given me an extra £40 and more significantly have promised to review the information they give in Amazon Marketplace in the light of those regulations - Result

Interesting that it is Amazon.

I had a faulty small lead acid battery from them about a year ago. As soon as I contacted them, by phone if I remember correctly, they immediately refunded and said there was no need to return the faulty one.

Yes that is their policy but in my case:
a) it was not faulty (I just ordered the wrong one) and
b) it was Amazon Marketplace and not Amazon, so Amazon just left it all to the seller (BattPit aka Win Eternal Tech Ltd) who refused to collect or refund.   

Amazon Marketplace is very different to Amazon and is a means that Amazon uses to get out of being responsible.   The majority of items bought on Amazon are now Marketplace and not Amazon but you have to look quite carefully to tell.   

Amazon say they are just a platform introducing buyers to sellers and not a trader, though earlier this year an appeals court in California ruled that Amazon can be held liable for products sold through its marketplace by a third-party seller.   

Californian state law is completely irrelevant to the UK.