Parking charge notice (PCN), Horizon, Iceland Chester - store closed and fine still issued!

Squirrel_Nut

Hi all,

Very important to point out that I have also read the Newbies sticky posts first (last night) before posting this. 

Just like another member 'face-t' who posted on the 24th July 2020, I've recently had a very similar bad experience from the same Iceland Chester car park (still managed by Horizon). Fact-t managed to get the fine cancelled, hopefully I can also - as it is crazy.

The signs seem to be exactly the same as in 2020 to 'face-t' and the letter that they sent me as the registered keeper, is worded the same (word for word - clip of their post from 2020 is given below - to save me needing to block out all of my details and posting the same text - hope this is ok). I've also posted below a photo of the back of the letter and new machines, current signage etc. in case it changes the advice / comments that I should follow.

I'm hoping that I should just follow the same advice as face-t did, but wanted to check before I submit my appeal on the Horizon website. 

Situation / details: 
- The driver entered the car park just before the closing time of the store on the day in question (they didn't know the closing time in advance of arriving and planned to shop in the store and get a free car park voucher to scan on the new machine at the entrance).
- When the time the driver arrived at the store entrance, the doors were locked and the store was closed for the day (to their surprise).
- The machines seemingly have no way to pay with cash. Pressing the screen and going through the options only offer the chance to scan a voucher that could not be obtained - due to said store being closed. I've been there to check this - though it doesn't state that you cant pay cash on the screen - but the only option is to scan a voucher. Annoyingly, there is a cash slot - but its useless, as you need a voucher to validate - which couldn't be obtained, as the store was closed.
- The driver then went to one of the signs and called the only phone number on the sign (see photo) - for Horizon (office closed, nobody to answer the call or take payment).
- Called Iceland customer services the next day and was told that they 'cannot do anything and please speak to the Horizon directly', as they do not own the car park. When asked who owns the car park, again the answer was 'we cannot do anything, please speak to Horizon'. Same answer when the manager was requested.

My question is (apologies if I annoy some people by asking this):

1. Should I use the same: (TEMPLATE ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' FIRST APPEAL THAT DOESN'T SAY WHO WAS DRIVING) from the Newbies post sticky within the 28 days (i.e. ASAP) on the Horizon appeals site (is this the best way to tackle this issue)?

Note: There is a Chinese restaurant ('Slowboat') that is above the Iceland store. The signage states that the restaurant can issue validation tickets to their customers for up to 3 hours. See the right side of the 3rd photo below. No use in this case, as the driver wasn't wanting a Chinese at the time.

Any current best advice / comments would be much appreciated! Again, I did all of the homework that I could before posting.

Coupon-mad

Easy, no need for a thread.  

That's clearly a non POFA PCN (driver not keeper liability) so the keeper appeals and wins.

Redx

As above , the keeper appeals as keeper using the blue text template , no changes !!!

If they don't know who was driving , they cannot win !!

This means that the keeper wins using POFA protection , so the circumstances are irrelevant

Coupon-mad

Look at the way they mislead hire firms about liability, top of page 2, despite knowing they don't use the POFA.

D_P_Dance

The  T&C render any contract invalid imo under unfair contracts terms  of the CRA, too high, far too wordy,  print too small .  Read this

https://www.open.edu/openlearn/society-politics-law/exclusion-clauses/content-section-6

Squirrel_Nut

Thanks all for taking your time to comment! I will follow your advice and use the blue text in the NEWBIES sticky as recommended. Before I do that:

Just for my understanding (and in case they reject my appeal as keeper only), what makes this PCN non-POFA? I thought that POFA 2012 means that the PPC can now go after the keeper if they don't know who the driver is. Is there something in the wording on Page 1 of the notice letter or signage that means that they cannot use the POFA in this case?

I've also read that I should wait until near the end of the 28 days to appeal, in case they re-issue the PCN with different wording.. is this also a good idea?

Squirrel_Nut

Thanks to Coupon-mad's post in the other thread - I can now see why this PCN is non POFA (from the wording on Page 1). 

I wont say any more than this..   




The only question is why to submit the appeal on the Horizon website? Now or wait until near the end of the 28 days..

Umkomaas

With an ANPR PCN/NtK the appeal can be done immediately. 

Use - as is - the blue text initial appeal template from the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, first post, but please add the following to it:

'As your Notice to Keeper does not comply with the strict requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4), as the registered keeper of the vehicle <AB123CDE> I have no liability in this matter. As there is no requirement for me to provide you with the details of the driver, I will not be doing so. I look forward to receiving confirmation of the cancellation of this invoice.'

Squirrel_Nut

Umkomaas, many thanks. I'll follow what you said above and add both the blue text initial appeal template from the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, first post and your additional text into the Horizon appeal site. 

Key point; I'll update on here as to the developments. 

Hopefully i can 'catch the fish' correctly to help myself and others for the future 

Umkomaas

Be careful of any drop down box which can default to 'I was the driver', don't go ticking that!

Umkomaas

Fails to include almost any of the required wording stipulated in para 9 of PoFA. More fundamentally, there is no mention whatsoever of PoFA. No mention, no keeper liability. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted