Can I block my neighbours gutter?

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Thankfully, you are here, as always, to cross the 'i's (without actually suggesting how the OP should approach this.).

And as always, there's more information needed to get to that point, rather than going off on the legal route which might end with more problems.  A good starting point would be confirming the relationship between the OP and his neighbours 1 and 3.

As well as if these are all owner/occupier properties. No point suing the occupiers of 4,5 and 6 if they are rented, HA or council owned.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

2) If the deeds say so, yes. If they don't, then no. I think that is pretty clear?

No.  If there is a pipe, conduit, or channel which is capable of carrying rainwater away from their property the neighbours might now have an established right, regardless of what it says in the deeds.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

No guarantee? Of course not. But with LP on the case, I'd be happy to bet. You know what I mean, and only a pe....

I think I know what you mean, but "you will win, no question" is going to be extremely misleading to anyone else who believes that means there is such a thing as a "no question" win.

If the cause of the flooding can be shown to be the OP's own downpipe getting blocked, then the chances of them winning are zero.

You went straight to the conclusion you have without even starting to question whether one downpipe should be capable of carrying away the water for the area of roof involved.  Chill, relax, don't go running to the lawyers until the basics are known.

DB1904

I'd also rule out a repeat of this. 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4258671/who-is-responsible-for-gutter-pipe-to-sewer#latest

Jeepers_Creepers

Section62 said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Thankfully, you are here, as always, to cross the 'i's (without actually suggesting how the OP should approach this.).

And as always, there's more information needed to get to that point, rather than going off on the legal route which might end with more problems.  A good starting point would be confirming the relationship between the OP and his neighbours 1 and 3.

As well as if these are all owner/occupier properties. No point suing the occupiers of 4,5 and 6 if they are rented, HA or council owned.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

2) If the deeds say so, yes. If they don't, then no. I think that is pretty clear?

No.  If there is a pipe, conduit, or channel which is capable of carrying rainwater away from their property the neighbours might now have an established right, regardless of what it says in the deeds.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

No guarantee? Of course not. But with LP on the case, I'd be happy to bet. You know what I mean, and only a pe....

I think I know what you mean, but "you will win, no question" is going to be extremely misleading to anyone else who believes that means there is such a thing as a "no question" win.

If the cause of the flooding can be shown to be the OP's own downpipe getting blocked, then the chances of them winning are zero.

You went straight to the conclusion you have without even starting to question whether one downpipe should be capable of carrying away the water for the area of roof involved.  Chill, relax, don't go running to the lawyers until the basics are known.

Are your comments helpful?

Let me rephrase that; are you comments even meant to be helpful?

They just seem pedantic and patronising, in a clumsy, contrived and deliberate way.

"...running to the lawyers...", indeed? You must be seeing things. You seem very keen to see things.

Section62

DB1904 said:

I'd also rule out a repeat of this. 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4258671/who-is-responsible-for-gutter-pipe-to-sewer#latest

OP, this is a great spot by DB1904, and is really important.

The issues with neighbours removing downpipes needs to be put to one side for now and you first need to rule out a repeat or further development of the previous problem with the underground drainage.

Blocked or damaged drain(s) are a more probable cause of basement level flooding than the number of properties served by a single downpipe. If the damage is serious enough, the rainwater from just your property alone could be enough to cause issues.

How did the builder try to resolve the problem? Did he put new pipework in? Did he add any kind of access cover/manhole? Did you ever discover who owned and was responsible for the drain?

It isn't unknown for jobbing builders to do poor quality drainage repair work, so the drains would now be the first thing I'd want to check out to get to the root of the problem.

HeWhoDares

Section62 said:

DB1904 said:

I'd also rule out a repeat of this. 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4258671/who-is-responsible-for-gutter-pipe-to-sewer#latest

OP, this is a great spot by DB1904, and is really important.

The issues with neighbours removing downpipes needs to be put to one side for now and you first need to rule out a repeat or further development of the previous problem with the underground drainage.

Blocked or damaged drain(s) are a more probable cause of basement level flooding than the number of properties served by a single downpipe. If the damage is serious enough, the rainwater from just your property alone could be enough to cause issues.

How did the builder try to resolve the problem? Did he put new pipework in? Did he add any kind of access cover/manhole? Did you ever discover who owned and was responsible for the drain?

It isn't unknown for jobbing builders to do poor quality drainage repair work, so the drains would now be the first thing I'd want to check out to get to the root of the problem.

The drain was damaged a number of years ago and replaced by the water board.  When the gutters were clear, all rain flowed freely down and the problems to the cellars were cleared up.  It's only now the gutters (and possibly DP) are blocked that the water overflows and we are having the same problem as the water doesn't make it to the drain, just overflows straight onto the ground in front of the cellars.  

Section62

HeWhoDares said:

The drain was damaged a number of years ago and replaced by the water board.  When the gutters were clear, all rain flowed freely down and the problems to the cellars were cleared up.  It's only now the gutters (and possibly DP) are blocked that the water overflows and we are having the same problem as the water doesn't make it to the drain, just overflows straight onto the ground in front of the cellars.  

Where exactly is the water overflowing?  Is it at the bottom of the downpipe, part way up, or is it coming from the actual gutter?  Or a combination of these?

Is the bottom end of the downpipe going straight into the ground, or does it have a 'shoe' on the bottom going into a gulley of some kind?  In other words, can you see how much water is flowing through the downpipe vs the amount overflowing?

Some pictures would help a lot. If you are concerned about privacy it would do just fine to have some close ups of the downpipe - zoomed in or cropped so there is nothing identifying the property.

Jeepers_Creepers

HeWhoDares said:

The drain was damaged a number of years ago and replaced by the water board.  When the gutters were clear, all rain flowed freely down and the problems to the cellars were cleared up.  It's only now the gutters (and possibly DP) are blocked that the water overflows and we are having the same problem as the water doesn't make it to the drain, just overflows straight onto the ground in front of the cellars.  

That is a separate issue, HWD, and you need to take some responsibility for keeping the DP clear.

Have you read your deeds yet?! This is kind of important.

Do you have LP? That is kind of important.

The deeds might explain whose responsibility the shared rainwater system is, and could even indicate a shared cost in its maintenance - which, when you think about it, would be right and fair. So, if your lonely DP does get blocked, it should be a shared cost to clear it.

Your presumably faultless neigh at '1' and your ditto at '3' and '5' - what do their deeds say about this? And what do they say about the situation? If 1, 3 and 5 just shrug, I would no longer consider them 'faultless' - they presumably work on the principle "If it doesn't affect me, then hey...".

But, regardless of the state of your DP, you are clearly going to have long-term issues when only one DP handles 6 houses' worth of rain, when it was designed with three. I have a suspicion the weather isn't going to improve in even the medium term.

HeWhoDares

Jeepers_Creepers said:

HeWhoDares said:

The drain was damaged a number of years ago and replaced by the water board.  When the gutters were clear, all rain flowed freely down and the problems to the cellars were cleared up.  It's only now the gutters (and possibly DP) are blocked that the water overflows and we are having the same problem as the water doesn't make it to the drain, just overflows straight onto the ground in front of the cellars.  

That is a separate issue, HWD, and you need to take some responsibility for keeping the DP clear.

Have you read your deeds yet?! This is kind of important.

Do you have LP? That is kind of important.

The deeds might explain whose responsibility the shared rainwater system is, and could even indicate a shared cost in its maintenance - which, when you think about it, would be right and fair. So, if your lonely DP does get blocked, it should be a shared cost to clear it.

Your presumably faultless neigh at '1' and your ditto at '3' and '5' - what do their deeds say about this? And what do they say about the situation? If 1, 3 and 5 just shrug, I would no longer consider them 'faultless' - they presumably work on the principle "If it doesn't affect me, then hey...".

But, regardless of the state of your DP, you are clearly going to have long-term issues when only one DP handles 6 houses' worth of rain, when it was designed with three. I have a suspicion the weather isn't going to improve in even the medium term.

There's nothing in the deeds about downpipes or shared drainage

Jeepers_Creepers

LegProt?

In theory, then, it's each house for itself. It would help to also see what a non-DP house's deeds say, but hopefully one of them will provide that answer when you approach them...

Time to have a word with all your neighbours in turn, perhaps starting with the non-DP ones, as they should be sharing your concern. Nice, calm, unemotive chat; get a feel for where they stand on this issue. Explain to them that - as the remaining DP owner - you are getting all the flow and all the leaves and all the debris from all their roofs - just because the two other neighbours removed their DPs.

Just state the facts - when the gutter overflows, you are the one to suffer. If the DP blocks, you have been the one to pay to have it sorted. This is an unsustainable situation, especially with weather conditions almost certainly going to deteriorate further; even with the cleanest DP, there will almost certainly be occasions where the existing setup just won't cope - and, again, it'll all literally be dumped on you.

Ask for their thoughts as to the best solution. Tell them that you see two possible outcomes; one is where the shared system is returned to the original design, 3 DPs. The other is that each owner will from now on look out for themselves - and that means separate gutters and DPs for each house (or whatever other arrangement neighbs wish to adopt beyond your house). Suggest they consider this, and get back to you.

I would hope that the non-DP houses would see problems ahead if they don't act with you on tackling the other two. Peer pressure.

I'm assuming you don't have LP 'cos you haven't mentioned it? If you do, then call them up for guidance.  

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

In theory, then, it's each house for itself.
 

No, it is not.

In the absence of anything explicit in (all) the property deeds, the way forward would involve showing that the neighbouring properties haven't got an acquired right to drain.

You can't just disconnect/block your neighbour's drainage and tell them to sort it out themselves, at least not without knowing that you have the clear legal right to do so.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

This is an unsustainable situation, especially with weather conditions almost certainly going to deteriorate further; even with the cleanest DP, there will almost certainly be occasions where the existing setup just won't cope - and, again, it'll all literally be dumped on you.

 

There will be occasions where any guttering system won't cope. The current design methodology is based on dealing with a rainfall event of a given return period, not to deal with anything the environment can throw at it.

Attempting to (legally) argue that climate change requires there to be more than one downpipe will fail.

The argument which needs to be made* is one that demonstrates a single downpipe - fully functioning and well maintained - is inadequate to drain the rooves of all 6 properties, based on an accepted design standard. Followed by arguments about how that undercapacity can be resolved.  If one downpipe is adequate, then there is no realistic prospect of winning a legal case against the neighbours.  (*if a right to go solo cannot be proved)

So the first step (after confirming the downpipe and drain aren't blocked) should be a rough calculation of the gutter and downpipe capacity requirement for the 6 rooves.  LegalProt might arrange someone who can do this, but I would arm myself with that info before contacting LP because it reduces the scope they have for wriggling out of doing anything.


The rest of your post outlines a generally reasonable way to proceed, but only if done on the basis of genuinely seeking cooperation, rather than under implied threat of "sort this out or I'll cut you all off".  The latter needs some legal certainty on drainage rights and obligations and could turn out to be an empty threat.