Care Home Costs

Keep_pedalling

Megandlg said:

As your mother had a pension only, it may be that she should have been eligible for some local authority funding of her care home fees. I wonder why she was paying her own fees in full, if this did not leave her any excess money for her own personal needs? 

As you’ve not said what the ‘costs’ that you have been billed for are, it is impossible for anyone to answer the question. I assume these might be for any addition time that her room was unable to be used by the home due to it still having her belongings in it. In this case, the initial contract will cover the home’s stance on this, which is likely to involve family paying fees until the room is cleared. If you do not do so, depending on the size of the care home company, they may choose to sue you for any costs outstanding. 

Some people have very large pensions. I am assuming it is the case here as the OP is saying she funded her own care.  

xylophone

You say that you and your mother were joint tenants and that she died with outstanding debts.

Are  you saying that her ownership in the property was the only asset of her estate at death?

See

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cardsloans/article-1689651/Does-my-uncles-debt-die-with-him.html

In a joint tenancy, the property automatically passes to the surviving owner and creditors cannot automatically expect that the property is sold to pay the debts.

However, within five years, they can apply to the court for an Insolvency Administration Order (IAO). In this procedure a trustee may seek to recover the value of the deceased debtor's interest in the property that has been lost to the estate by making an application to the court. The court may make an order requiring the surviving partner to pay the trustee an amount not exceeding the value lost to the estate.

billy2shots

I'm not saying this is relevant to this thread but in my professional experience the following happens regularly. 


When someone lacks the capacity to deal with their own financial affairs someone else can become their financial appointee, deputy or power of attorney (financial and or health). 

In this situation benefits can be paid into that third parties bank account. That third party would then pay the care fees on behalf of the other person and all over bills.

Legally the money belongs to the person who lacks capacity but many people acting on behalf that person fail to keep it separate from their personal finances.

I am a care home owner / manager. I was financial appointee for 3 clients. This is not the done thing these days but 20 years ago when it was set up it was ok. All 3 have their benefits and savings in separate accounts in my name RE (clients name). 

They are very clear and easy to audit. I am inspected and checked annually. Every penny spent is documented and receipts are kept. 

However, I am closing one home. As such the service users are moving on and will require new appointees. In all cases a family member has now agreed (they refused in the past) to take this on. 

In all cases I have had to transfer the money into their family members personal account. Suddenly the clarity has ended and the water is muddied. 

The powers that be cease to be interested once a family member takes control of finances. In 20 years I have never heard of a family member be checked or audited. 

Now, unscrupulous people can claim that all of the clients money has been spent on them and there is very little the state can do about it. 

In this case it's not hard to show there is no estate when someone passes. 


Once again,  I'm not saying that is what the OP has done, I'm just showing how it's possible for someone to have a high income yet die with nothing (or it appears they have nothing). 


Caveat- The people I care for have learning disabilities from birth and therefore do not have private pensions, and very rarely do they own property (unless inherited). 

Linton

I am not a lawyer but since no one has given a definitive opinion perhaps the following will clarify things….

 Summarising https://death-duties.co.uk/debts-of-the-estate, creditors of an estate have 5 years to apply to the courts to have a jointly owned  house sold to pay the deceased’s debts.

I assume that the house was sold after your mother died. It would seem therefore that you should have used up to half the proceeds to pay any valid debts owed by your mother.

BooJewels

What I'm struggling to grasp with this thread is how much and of what nature the outstanding debt to the care home is - and over what time-frame - has the bill just surfaced because the home have learnt that the house is now sold?

If she was self funding and covering her own home fees, you'd think that there can't be that much left to pay.  I had a bill to pay after my father passed, as he'd had his hair cut, new glasses and some podiatry - I think I paid about 30 quid at the end - it was 2 or 3 weeks before it was finalised - certainly not months or longer.

At the time he died, I was a week in credit with them (I was paying his fees - 4-weekly - from his account, as PoA) and between the home manager and myself, we called it quits at that, as it was during the first big lockdown and they weren't prepared to let me in to collect his stuff anyway and it suited them to leave his room visually 'occupied', as there was pressure being applied to take Covid release-ees from hospitals.  By the time we collected it post-lockdown, it was all very carefully wrapped and packed in sealed boxes with his name on.  

pollypenny

OP's mother did have an estate while she was alive - half ownership of a house, so she would have been liable surely. 

Keep_pedalling

BooJewels said:

What I'm struggling to grasp with this thread is how much and of what nature the outstanding debt to the care home is - and over what time-frame - has the bill just surfaced because the home have learnt that the house is now sold?

If she was self funding and covering her own home fees, you'd think that there can't be that much left to pay.  I had a bill to pay after my father passed, as he'd had his hair cut, new glasses and some podiatry - I think I paid about 30 quid at the end - it was 2 or 3 weeks before it was finalised - certainly not months or longer.

At the time he died, I was a week in credit with them (I was paying his fees - 4-weekly - from his account, as PoA) and between the home manager and myself, we called it quits at that, as it was during the first big lockdown and they weren't prepared to let me in to collect his stuff anyway and it suited them to leave his room visually 'occupied', as there was pressure being applied to take Covid release-ees from hospitals.  By the time we collected it post-lockdown, it was all very carefully wrapped and packed in sealed boxes with his name on.  

The OP was asked about these debts over on his other thread in the cutting tax board but has not answered the question.

I suspect the house (and possibly other assets) was put into joint tenancy to avoid probate, but that does not mean she has no estate, certainly HMRC won’t see it that way, and probate may still be required for IHT purposes.

Her actual estate consists of 50% of the house (100% if she actually gifted the OP joint ownership) all gifts over her annual allowance from the last 7 years,100% of all other jointly held assets that came solely from her funds and 50% of any other jointly held assets. Quite easy to get in IHT territory if you take that lot into account.

elsien

Same questions do keep being asked, including what the bill was for.
Going to keep going round in the same circles  if OP decides not to share any more information.

Bobbydue

Keep_pedalling said:

BooJewels said:

What I'm struggling to grasp with this thread is how much and of what nature the outstanding debt to the care home is - and over what time-frame - has the bill just surfaced because the home have learnt that the house is now sold?

If she was self funding and covering her own home fees, you'd think that there can't be that much left to pay.  I had a bill to pay after my father passed, as he'd had his hair cut, new glasses and some podiatry - I think I paid about 30 quid at the end - it was 2 or 3 weeks before it was finalised - certainly not months or longer.

At the time he died, I was a week in credit with them (I was paying his fees - 4-weekly - from his account, as PoA) and between the home manager and myself, we called it quits at that, as it was during the first big lockdown and they weren't prepared to let me in to collect his stuff anyway and it suited them to leave his room visually 'occupied', as there was pressure being applied to take Covid release-ees from hospitals.  By the time we collected it post-lockdown, it was all very carefully wrapped and packed in sealed boxes with his name on.  

The OP was asked about these debts over on his other thread in the cutting tax board but has not answered the question.

I suspect the house (and possibly other assets) was put into joint tenancy to avoid probate, but that does not mean she has no estate, certainly HMRC won’t see it that way, and probate may still be required for IHT purposes.

Her actual estate consists of 50% of the house (100% if she actually gifted the OP joint ownership) all gifts over her annual allowance from the last 7 years,100% of all other jointly held assets that came solely from her funds and 50% of any other jointly held assets. Quite easy to get in IHT territory if you take that lot into account.

No the house was purchased as Joint Tenants 30 odd years ago with no idea about probate etc.

There are no assets, the outstanding bill is circa 2k which was left when my mother went into a nursing home and the care home kept her place open expecting her to return.

My question was just hypothetical, but tbh I will pay the bill, I just wanted to know where I stood legally

Pollycat

Bobbydue said:

Keep_pedalling said:

BooJewels said:

What I'm struggling to grasp with this thread is how much and of what nature the outstanding debt to the care home is - and over what time-frame - has the bill just surfaced because the home have learnt that the house is now sold?

If she was self funding and covering her own home fees, you'd think that there can't be that much left to pay.  I had a bill to pay after my father passed, as he'd had his hair cut, new glasses and some podiatry - I think I paid about 30 quid at the end - it was 2 or 3 weeks before it was finalised - certainly not months or longer.

At the time he died, I was a week in credit with them (I was paying his fees - 4-weekly - from his account, as PoA) and between the home manager and myself, we called it quits at that, as it was during the first big lockdown and they weren't prepared to let me in to collect his stuff anyway and it suited them to leave his room visually 'occupied', as there was pressure being applied to take Covid release-ees from hospitals.  By the time we collected it post-lockdown, it was all very carefully wrapped and packed in sealed boxes with his name on.  

The OP was asked about these debts over on his other thread in the cutting tax board but has not answered the question.

I suspect the house (and possibly other assets) was put into joint tenancy to avoid probate, but that does not mean she has no estate, certainly HMRC won’t see it that way, and probate may still be required for IHT purposes.

Her actual estate consists of 50% of the house (100% if she actually gifted the OP joint ownership) all gifts over her annual allowance from the last 7 years,100% of all other jointly held assets that came solely from her funds and 50% of any other jointly held assets. Quite easy to get in IHT territory if you take that lot into account.

No they house was purchased as Joint Tenants 30 odd years ago with no idea about probate etc.

This are no assets, the outstanding bill is circa 2k which was left when my mother went into a nursing home and the care home kept her place open expecting her to return.

My question was just hypothetical, but tbh I will pay the bill, I just wanted to know where I stood legally

So it's costs incurred by your Mum before she died...

The care home kept your Mum's room available when they could have allocated it to another person.

Regardless of where you stand 'legally', morally your Mum owed that money.

Unless you gave notice and the care home continued to keep your Mum's room available regardless...

I'm glad you are going to pay the bill.

What about the fees for the nursing home that would have been incurred at the same time as the £2k bill from the care home?

Or was your Mum fully funded during her (probably very brief) stay in the nursing home?