Construction waste responsibility

arciere

Section62 said:

arciere said:

Now, accepted that no waste should ever be dumped on public soil without previous authorisation, should the council decide to fine us, would we be required to pay for it?

You knew it was wrong, and you knew it was there.  There's not much space for avoidance if the Council decide it was your duty of care.  Not that 'not knowing' would get you off either.

The Council will start by investigating you, because they know where you live and can link the waste to your property.  Whether you can avoid a FPN or prosecution will depend on how the duty of care falls, and the extent to which you are willing to put the builder in the frame.

arciere said:

I am asking because at no stage we physically dumped waste there ourselves or even instructed the builders to do so. We were asked to arrange for a final rubbish collection as soon as the works finished (which happened the other day), which we did immediately.

This bit is important - what was agreed with the builder?  Were they responsible for removing the waste they created during the work, or had you agreed that you would make arrangements for waste disposal?  I.e. who do you mean by "We"?

This is what happened:

During the works, they organised for a wait and load skip when required depending on the waste they were creating. They paid for it, sent us the invoice and then we paid them back (similar thing with building materials, they purchased as and when required, and we paid them few days later).

On the last occasion, we were told that wait and load skip would be more expensive, they asked us to arrange for a rubbish collection as soon as the works were complete. We were given a contact because I don't know any rubbish collection companies.

The works finished the other day, I got confirmation from the builders that the waste could be collected, I called the collection company and the collection was organised for today (it should have been yesterday but they had no available slots).

That's pretty much it.

Doozergirl

There's no different page to be on.  It is always your responsibility.   The council are only concerned with who the 'flytipped' waste belongs to in the first instance.   

You knew it wasn't where it should be, you just didn't
know what the consequence might be.  

arciere

Doozergirl said:

There's no different page to be on.  It is always your responsibility.   The council are only concerned with who the 'flytipped' waste belongs to in the first instance.   

You knew it wasn't where it should be, you just didn't
know what the consequence might be.  

How was I supposed to know that they didn't ask the council for authorisation to temporarily keep the material there until it was collected? That's what I don't get.

It's not that I thought that it would magically disappear, I knew that it would have been collected yesterday or today. But I assumed that they had permission to keep it there.

I know I'm saying "assume", but if I knew all the authorisations that are required to build something (from a builders perspective), I would be a builder myself, and I am not.

Section62

arciere said:

This is what happened:

During the works, they organised for a wait and load skip when required depending on the waste they were creating. They paid for it, sent us the invoice and then we paid them back (similar thing with building materials, they purchased as and when required, and we paid them few days later).

On the last occasion, we were told that wait and load skip would be more expensive, they asked us to arrange for a rubbish collection as soon as the works were complete. We were given a contact because I don't know any rubbish collection companies.

The works finished the other day, I got confirmation from the builders that the waste could be collected, I called the collection company and the collection was organised for today (it should have been yesterday but they had no available slots).

That's pretty much it.

Then I think that the Council will decide that the waste was either always yours, or (possibly more likely) was transferred to you on making arrangements with the builder that you would organise the disposal.

The Council could take the view that both you and the builder have failed in your respective duties of care, and take enforcement action against both.

Who physically put the waste on the land is largely irrelevant in this situation.  To be totally safe, you should have instructed the builder not to put the waste on land which isn't part of your property, or instruct them to remove it immediately if they had already put it there.

If it was me, I would now cooperate with the council's investigation and be minded to just pay the FPN if issued - depending on what exactly the FPN is issued for, and the amount payable.

Otherwise you should consider getting legal advice on your options.

Flytipping of building waste is treated as a very serious issue by councils, not least because flytipping tends to attract further flytipping, and flytipped building waste often contains hazardous materials (e.g. asbestos).  For this reason, even if you had asked permission to temporarily store the waste on public land the request would likely be refused unless it was going in a secured skip.

Jeepers_Creepers

It does seem a bit unfair, arc, but - as they say - "ignorance is no excuse". If it helps, I was ignorant of this too.

"Today I was told that someone, presumably working for the council, informed our neighbours (we were not at home) that we would be fined because of the remaining waste material that still hasn't been collected (the collection was already arranged for today before their visit)." Who told you? How nice of the council to seemingly come out, decide it's worthy of a fine, pass this info on to a neighbour (I wonder if it's one that 'shopped' you?), but left no note for you? Quality performance.

Since it seems you are technically 'stuffed' should they wish to fine you, I guess it's worth a pre-emptive call to their EH or waste disposal department (which one, Doozer?) to explain - with humblest apologies - that you didn't appreciate the situation, that the stuff was actually left there by your builder so you assumed they knew what they were doing, but that in any case collection is being carried out, as arranged, right now.

Doozergirl

I've no idea what department it is.  I've never had to deal with them!  

I don't think a pre-emptive strike is going to do anything.   I'd just wait for the FPN and pay it.   

We've all received fines or encountered issues that we have felt aggrieved by.  The authorities often don't make it easy for us to know what is right, but it doesn't make us right.  

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Who told you? How nice of the council to seemingly come out, decide it's worthy of a fine, pass this info on to a neighbour (I wonder if it's one that 'shopped' you?), but left no note for you? Quality performance.

It is, potentially, an investigation of a crime.  The enforcement officer might knock on doors and speak to people to find out whose waste it is and how long it has been there, and during the conversation might mention that a 'fine' might be the result of a flytipping prosecution.

If nobody is at home they won't usually leave a little note for the alleged/suspected perpetrator to say "We called today to investigate you for the crime of flytipping, but you were out".

The next step (if any) will be a letter in the post, or further knocks on the door.

The 'performance' will be in accordance with that council's process for conducting investigations.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Since it seems you are technically 'stuffed' should they wish to fine you, I guess it's worth a pre-emptive call to their EH or waste disposal department (which one, Doozer?) to explain - with humblest apologies - that you didn't appreciate the situation, that the stuff was actually left there by your builder so you assumed they knew what they were doing, but that in any case collection is being carried out, as arranged, right now.

I personally wouldn't make that phone call.  I'd take photographs to prove the waste was cleared today, and make sure I have safely kept copies of emails/texts/phone records regarding the arrangements for the waste, including that today was the earliest available date.

A later step in the process might be an interview under caution.  Phone calls making humblest apologies now could further incriminate the OP, or contain information which is later contradicted in the interview.

ic

Why is this being argued here?  Take it to court and argue with the magistrate.

Grenage

It would be a waste of time and effort.  Far less effort to pay the fine, which is the only likely outcome.

arciere

I did a couple of phone calls. The council does not have anything at their end. Those gentlemen work as caretakers for a separate organisation that operates on behalf of the council.

I called this company but unfortunately the manager that the caretakers report to was out of office. The lady I spoke to however said that there shouldn't be any problem since it's all gone (it was hours before I called them). She said she would leave a note to the manager anyway.

I never wanted to dodge responsibilities, it just seemed unfair that you pay tens of thousands of pounds to a company, plus thousands of pounds for rubbish disposal, yet you need to babysit them in case they do something they're not allowed to do.