Charged in GBP without my agreement, card issuer and Mastercard refuse to fix it, any ideas?

Peter_Parsons

Just to update this - the solution seems to be don't accept the BS and stick to your guns.

After escalating the complaint within my issuer, they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge.

zagfles

Peter_Parsons said:

Just to update this - the solution seems to be don't accept the BS and stick to your guns.

After escalating the complaint within my issuer, they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge.

Well done - bank call centres often try to fob customers off, or are clueless and don't understand the rules, so always worth escalating.

In future when abroad, always say you want to be charged in <local currency> when handing your card over, and if using a handheld POS terminal keep hold of it after entering the PIN to see if asks about DCC.

zagfles

born_again said:

zagfles said:

etienneg said:

Sadly for the OP, I think this is like signing a contract without reading it, when you are deemed to have agreed to whatever it says. Entering a PIN without seeing an amount and currency in the terminal window means you are deemed to have agreed to whatever the merchant had previously entered. I'm afraid there are unscrupulous merchants out there who will make a bit extra by this sort of deviousness. But, in practical terms, trying to fight it after the event is pointless.

So, best to accept it this time, learn from the mistake for the future, and move on.

No, it's like a contract being altered after it's been signed. Read the above Mastercard guide linked above in particular the bit I referenced.

>>> The Cardholder’s PIN provides confirmation and approval of the transaction that is about to take place and should therefore always be the last step in the transaction. It is best practice that a POS terminal screen should clearly state the option of DCC prior to the Cardholder entering their PIN, and that it should then prompt them to choose either the local currency or their billing currency for the transaction. This avoids any confusion or disappointment on the part of the Cardholder.<<<

The OP has not said anything other than there was nothing showing on screen when they entered their PIN.
Which is clear from the above (which is what you linked too) that entering your PIN is confirmation & approval of the transaction. Never seen a terminal where a PIN is entered before the amount.

Well you probably haven't been to many Spanish restaurants then. Read this bit on p.26 of the Mastercard guide:

"In this instance, the choice of currency conversion was offered on the terminal, but this was done after the PIN had been entered and the option was not conveyed to the Cardholder."

That happens almost everywhere in some countries.

Peter_Parsons

zagfles said:

Peter_Parsons said:

Just to update this - the solution seems to be don't accept the BS and stick to your guns.

After escalating the complaint within my issuer, they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge.

Well done - bank call centres often try to fob customers off, or are clueless and don't understand the rules, so always worth escalating.

In future when abroad, always say you want to be charged in <local currency> when handing your card over, and if using a handheld POS terminal keep hold of it after entering the PIN to see if asks about DCC.

Thank you, and thank you for the documents you shared.

I got nowhere with the bank's disputes team, so insisted that it was escalated within the bank (or I was going to the Ombudsman) and the person it was escalated to had made the effort to read what had happened and accepted that the rules had clearly not been followed.

In future, I will never enter my PIN without seeing the screen wherever it is. I trusted that, having discussed the bill in local currency only, that that was what I'd be paying in. I won't be anywhere near so trusting in future. It's a shame that I will need to be that way, but once bitten, twice shy.

[Deleted User]

Peter_Parsons said:

zagfles said:

Peter_Parsons said:

Just to update this - the solution seems to be don't accept the BS and stick to your guns.

After escalating the complaint within my issuer, they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge.

Well done - bank call centres often try to fob customers off, or are clueless and don't understand the rules, so always worth escalating.

In future when abroad, always say you want to be charged in <local currency> when handing your card over, and if using a handheld POS terminal keep hold of it after entering the PIN to see if asks about DCC.

Thank you, and thank you for the documents you shared.

I got nowhere with the bank's disputes team, so insisted that it was escalated within the bank (or I was going to the Ombudsman) and the person it was escalated to had made the effort to read what had happened and accepted that the rules had clearly not been followed.

In future, I will never enter my PIN without seeing the screen wherever it is. I trusted that, having discussed the bill in local currency only, that that was what I'd be paying in. I won't be anywhere near so trusting in future. It's a shame that I will need to be that way, but once bitten, twice shy.

The sum being low, the bank paid it to get rid of you as it costs them more in wasting time and FOS fees, not because you were right or wrong - hence it's always a good lesson to stick to your guns and well done for doing so.

Whether the FOS would have agreed there was a fault and tell the bank to refund or not had they refused, I don't know, I cannot see any cases where they have made a decision on this

zagfles

Deleted_User said:

Peter_Parsons said:

zagfles said:

Peter_Parsons said:

Just to update this - the solution seems to be don't accept the BS and stick to your guns.

After escalating the complaint within my issuer, they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge.

Well done - bank call centres often try to fob customers off, or are clueless and don't understand the rules, so always worth escalating.

In future when abroad, always say you want to be charged in <local currency> when handing your card over, and if using a handheld POS terminal keep hold of it after entering the PIN to see if asks about DCC.

Thank you, and thank you for the documents you shared.

I got nowhere with the bank's disputes team, so insisted that it was escalated within the bank (or I was going to the Ombudsman) and the person it was escalated to had made the effort to read what had happened and accepted that the rules had clearly not been followed.

In future, I will never enter my PIN without seeing the screen wherever it is. I trusted that, having discussed the bill in local currency only, that that was what I'd be paying in. I won't be anywhere near so trusting in future. It's a shame that I will need to be that way, but once bitten, twice shy.

The sum being low, the bank paid it to get rid of you as it costs them more in wasting time and FOS fees, not because you were right or wrong - hence it's always a good lesson to stick to your guns and well done for doing so.

Whether the FOS would have agreed there was a fault and tell the bank to refund or not had they refused, I don't know, I cannot see any cases where they have made a decision on this

The banks would never let it get as far as the FOS, before that stage someone at the bank who knows what they're doing would have looked at the case. Banks know that DCC non-complaince and even fraud is rife amongst retailers in some countries.

I doubt they'd have taken a 3-figure loss on the chin, they'd have charged it back to the retailer.

[Deleted User]

zagfles said:

Deleted_User said:

Peter_Parsons said:

zagfles said:

Peter_Parsons said:

Just to update this - the solution seems to be don't accept the BS and stick to your guns.

After escalating the complaint within my issuer, they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge.

Well done - bank call centres often try to fob customers off, or are clueless and don't understand the rules, so always worth escalating.

In future when abroad, always say you want to be charged in <local currency> when handing your card over, and if using a handheld POS terminal keep hold of it after entering the PIN to see if asks about DCC.

Thank you, and thank you for the documents you shared.

I got nowhere with the bank's disputes team, so insisted that it was escalated within the bank (or I was going to the Ombudsman) and the person it was escalated to had made the effort to read what had happened and accepted that the rules had clearly not been followed.

In future, I will never enter my PIN without seeing the screen wherever it is. I trusted that, having discussed the bill in local currency only, that that was what I'd be paying in. I won't be anywhere near so trusting in future. It's a shame that I will need to be that way, but once bitten, twice shy.

The sum being low, the bank paid it to get rid of you as it costs them more in wasting time and FOS fees, not because you were right or wrong - hence it's always a good lesson to stick to your guns and well done for doing so.

Whether the FOS would have agreed there was a fault and tell the bank to refund or not had they refused, I don't know, I cannot see any cases where they have made a decision on this

The banks would never let it get as far as the FOS, before that stage someone at the bank who knows what they're doing would have looked at the case. Banks know that DCC non-complaince and even fraud is rife amongst retailers in some countries.

I doubt they'd have taken a 3-figure loss on the chin, they'd have charged it back to the retailer.

The bank refused a charge back if you read the OP so they did pay out of their own pockets. The FOS fee is something like £750 so refunding the difference between the bill and the bill without DCC (which is what they did) is going to be reasonably low - OP said it was 7% difference between what they would have paid vs what they did - on a £1000 bill that's only £70. You can doubt all you like, banks have thresholds for "go away" payments, with PPI and packaged bank accounts it's been closed to 4 figures as it's still cheaper than an FOS case fee, unless OP was staying at the Ritz at £1000 a night for 10 nights, I very much doubt what they "took on the chin" was anything like a significant three figure sum

zagfles

Deleted_User said:

zagfles said:

Deleted_User said:

Peter_Parsons said:

zagfles said:

Peter_Parsons said:

Just to update this - the solution seems to be don't accept the BS and stick to your guns.

After escalating the complaint within my issuer, they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge.

Well done - bank call centres often try to fob customers off, or are clueless and don't understand the rules, so always worth escalating.

In future when abroad, always say you want to be charged in <local currency> when handing your card over, and if using a handheld POS terminal keep hold of it after entering the PIN to see if asks about DCC.

Thank you, and thank you for the documents you shared.

I got nowhere with the bank's disputes team, so insisted that it was escalated within the bank (or I was going to the Ombudsman) and the person it was escalated to had made the effort to read what had happened and accepted that the rules had clearly not been followed.

In future, I will never enter my PIN without seeing the screen wherever it is. I trusted that, having discussed the bill in local currency only, that that was what I'd be paying in. I won't be anywhere near so trusting in future. It's a shame that I will need to be that way, but once bitten, twice shy.

The sum being low, the bank paid it to get rid of you as it costs them more in wasting time and FOS fees, not because you were right or wrong - hence it's always a good lesson to stick to your guns and well done for doing so.

Whether the FOS would have agreed there was a fault and tell the bank to refund or not had they refused, I don't know, I cannot see any cases where they have made a decision on this

The banks would never let it get as far as the FOS, before that stage someone at the bank who knows what they're doing would have looked at the case. Banks know that DCC non-complaince and even fraud is rife amongst retailers in some countries.

I doubt they'd have taken a 3-figure loss on the chin, they'd have charged it back to the retailer.

The bank refused a charge back if you read the OP so they did pay out of their own pockets. The FOS fee is something like £750 so refunding the difference between the bill and the bill without DCC (which is what they did) is going to be reasonably low - OP said it was 7% difference between what they would have paid vs what they did - on a £1000 bill that's only £70. You can doubt all you like, banks have thresholds for "go away" payments, with PPI and packaged bank accounts it's been closed to 4 figures as it's still cheaper than an FOS case fee, unless OP was staying at the Ritz at £1000 a night for 10 nights, I very much doubt what they "took on the chin" was anything like a significant three figure sum

Initially they did, the usual first line fob off attempt, but after the OP escalated it he reported: "....they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge."

Why would the bank take the hit for a merchant not following the rules? They'd have almost certainly done a chargeback for the DCC difference. Retailers do get chargebacks for DCC disputes, see these sites aimed at helping retailers with chargebacks:

https://midigator.com/chargeback-reason-codes/mastercard/4834-poi-currency-conversion-dynamic-currency-conversion/

https://chargebacks911.com/chargeback-reason-codes/mastercard/4834-point-of-interaction-currency-conversion/

The idea that banks roll over on an unjustified complaint to avoid a FOS fee is laughable - if that were true everyone would complain about every transaction on spurious grounds and no-one would pay their bill There would have to be validity to the claim for the bank to refund, especially it wasn't anything they'd done.

p3ncilsharpener

zagfles said:

Deleted_User said:

zagfles said:

Deleted_User said:

Peter_Parsons said:

zagfles said:

Peter_Parsons said:

Just to update this - the solution seems to be don't accept the BS and stick to your guns.

After escalating the complaint within my issuer, they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge.

Well done - bank call centres often try to fob customers off, or are clueless and don't understand the rules, so always worth escalating.

In future when abroad, always say you want to be charged in <local currency> when handing your card over, and if using a handheld POS terminal keep hold of it after entering the PIN to see if asks about DCC.

Thank you, and thank you for the documents you shared.

I got nowhere with the bank's disputes team, so insisted that it was escalated within the bank (or I was going to the Ombudsman) and the person it was escalated to had made the effort to read what had happened and accepted that the rules had clearly not been followed.

In future, I will never enter my PIN without seeing the screen wherever it is. I trusted that, having discussed the bill in local currency only, that that was what I'd be paying in. I won't be anywhere near so trusting in future. It's a shame that I will need to be that way, but once bitten, twice shy.

The sum being low, the bank paid it to get rid of you as it costs them more in wasting time and FOS fees, not because you were right or wrong - hence it's always a good lesson to stick to your guns and well done for doing so.

Whether the FOS would have agreed there was a fault and tell the bank to refund or not had they refused, I don't know, I cannot see any cases where they have made a decision on this

The banks would never let it get as far as the FOS, before that stage someone at the bank who knows what they're doing would have looked at the case. Banks know that DCC non-complaince and even fraud is rife amongst retailers in some countries.

I doubt they'd have taken a 3-figure loss on the chin, they'd have charged it back to the retailer.

The bank refused a charge back if you read the OP so they did pay out of their own pockets. The FOS fee is something like £750 so refunding the difference between the bill and the bill without DCC (which is what they did) is going to be reasonably low - OP said it was 7% difference between what they would have paid vs what they did - on a £1000 bill that's only £70. You can doubt all you like, banks have thresholds for "go away" payments, with PPI and packaged bank accounts it's been closed to 4 figures as it's still cheaper than an FOS case fee, unless OP was staying at the Ritz at £1000 a night for 10 nights, I very much doubt what they "took on the chin" was anything like a significant three figure sum

Initially they did, the usual first line fob off attempt, but after the OP escalated it he reported: "....they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge."

Why would the bank take the hit for a merchant not following the rules? They'd have almost certainly done a chargeback for the DCC difference. Retailers do get chargebacks for DCC disputes, see these sites aimed at helping retailers with chargebacks:

https://midigator.com/chargeback-reason-codes/mastercard/4834-poi-currency-conversion-dynamic-currency-conversion/

https://chargebacks911.com/chargeback-reason-codes/mastercard/4834-point-of-interaction-currency-conversion/

The idea that banks roll over on an unjustified complaint to avoid a FOS fee is laughable - if that were true everyone would complain about every transaction on spurious grounds and no-one would pay their bill There would have to be validity to the claim for the bank to refund, especially it wasn't anything they'd done.

Banks (and many other businesses) absolutely DO roll over when customers push back hard enough.

Businesses care about one thing, money.  If it costs £550 for the Ombudsman fee + the wages for dealing with it (probably several hours) vs paying maybe double digits out of their own pockets, they're going to pay double digits out of their own pockets.

There are countless examples on this forum of people who are absolutely in the wrong "winning" with companies, and it's because the company takes the view that backing down is the better option, because it'll cost them less.

Thrugelmir

p3ncilsharpener said:

zagfles said:

Deleted_User said:

zagfles said:

Deleted_User said:

Peter_Parsons said:

zagfles said:

Peter_Parsons said:

Just to update this - the solution seems to be don't accept the BS and stick to your guns.

After escalating the complaint within my issuer, they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge.

Well done - bank call centres often try to fob customers off, or are clueless and don't understand the rules, so always worth escalating.

In future when abroad, always say you want to be charged in <local currency> when handing your card over, and if using a handheld POS terminal keep hold of it after entering the PIN to see if asks about DCC.

Thank you, and thank you for the documents you shared.

I got nowhere with the bank's disputes team, so insisted that it was escalated within the bank (or I was going to the Ombudsman) and the person it was escalated to had made the effort to read what had happened and accepted that the rules had clearly not been followed.

In future, I will never enter my PIN without seeing the screen wherever it is. I trusted that, having discussed the bill in local currency only, that that was what I'd be paying in. I won't be anywhere near so trusting in future. It's a shame that I will need to be that way, but once bitten, twice shy.

The sum being low, the bank paid it to get rid of you as it costs them more in wasting time and FOS fees, not because you were right or wrong - hence it's always a good lesson to stick to your guns and well done for doing so.

Whether the FOS would have agreed there was a fault and tell the bank to refund or not had they refused, I don't know, I cannot see any cases where they have made a decision on this

The banks would never let it get as far as the FOS, before that stage someone at the bank who knows what they're doing would have looked at the case. Banks know that DCC non-complaince and even fraud is rife amongst retailers in some countries.

I doubt they'd have taken a 3-figure loss on the chin, they'd have charged it back to the retailer.

The bank refused a charge back if you read the OP so they did pay out of their own pockets. The FOS fee is something like £750 so refunding the difference between the bill and the bill without DCC (which is what they did) is going to be reasonably low - OP said it was 7% difference between what they would have paid vs what they did - on a £1000 bill that's only £70. You can doubt all you like, banks have thresholds for "go away" payments, with PPI and packaged bank accounts it's been closed to 4 figures as it's still cheaper than an FOS case fee, unless OP was staying at the Ritz at £1000 a night for 10 nights, I very much doubt what they "took on the chin" was anything like a significant three figure sum

Initially they did, the usual first line fob off attempt, but after the OP escalated it he reported: "....they have accepted that the Mastercard rules were not followed by the merchant and they have credited my account with the amount of the overcharge."

Why would the bank take the hit for a merchant not following the rules? They'd have almost certainly done a chargeback for the DCC difference. Retailers do get chargebacks for DCC disputes, see these sites aimed at helping retailers with chargebacks:

https://midigator.com/chargeback-reason-codes/mastercard/4834-poi-currency-conversion-dynamic-currency-conversion/

https://chargebacks911.com/chargeback-reason-codes/mastercard/4834-point-of-interaction-currency-conversion/

The idea that banks roll over on an unjustified complaint to avoid a FOS fee is laughable - if that were true everyone would complain about every transaction on spurious grounds and no-one would pay their bill There would have to be validity to the claim for the bank to refund, especially it wasn't anything they'd done.

Banks (and many other businesses) absolutely DO roll over when customers push back hard enough.

Businesses care about one thing, money.  If it costs £550 for the Ombudsman fee + the wages for dealing with it (probably several hours) vs paying maybe double digits out of their own pockets, they're going to pay double digits out of their own pockets.

There are countless examples on this forum of people who are absolutely in the wrong "winning" with companies, and it's because the company takes the view that backing down is the better option, because it'll cost them less.

A fee is only charged if it's decided that an investigation is neccessary. The act of complaining doesn't in itself a chargeable event.  Would make a nonsense of the system if it did.