Llangrannog beach car park rip-off. Is the pay and display ticket relevant?

Coupon-mad

You don’t need to find a case like yours, this is basic stuff.  It’s about the signage. 

You will likely lose at POPLA unless they see the evidence from you about how crap the signs are, and agree with you that the 10 minute sticker wasn’t on any signs near you or the machine. 

You will probably lose at POPLA anyway so don’t bust a gut and don’t pay OPS and don’t panic about court because that’s where these cases are won, at no risk.

As long as you know you are likely to lose at POPLA then there really is no need to stress about this waste of time stage but do it anyway as you never know. I told you where to get signage pics.

Umkomaas

The parking contract doesn't start 'until the green button is pressed' - Court of Appeal judgment in NCP v HMRC. Persuasive on lower courts. I wouldn't be over optimistic that POPLA will even understand it (use it nonetheless), but you should find a more empathetic ear if it gets to the county court. 

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2019/854.html

ParkingMad

Here are some photos of the signs -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6043478/llangrannog-beach-car-park-pcns-when-prevented-from-paying/p7

This thread is about taking too long to pay and getting a PCN -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6270474/bought-a-10-ticket-for-12-hours-still-slapped-100-charge-by-one-parking-solutions-at-llangrannog/p1

Here is some helpful advice from the Llangrannog Welfare Committee website -

http://llangrannogwelfare.org/beachfront-car-park

Nubley

NCP v HMRC appears to be essentially about whether VAT is chargeable on motorists' overpayments.

The only relevant sentence I can find is the following one...

"A contract between NCP and the customer will, in the hypothetical example, have been concluded NO LATER than the point at which the customer chose to press the green button to receive her ticket."

The words that concern me here are the two in capitals (NO LATER). Does that not suggest it is possible the contract might be concluded earlier than that (eg, at the conclusion of the 10-minute observation period)?

Redx

Yes it could be sooner if the button was pressed sooner , but defines the actual button press action as the actual time that the paid for contract starts , so yours started at that same point , so the starting gun goes off when that button is pressed

You don't appear to have told us how long the alleged overstay was

ParkingMad

Paragraph 18 says

In the hypothetical example, the precise figure was settled when the customer inserted her pound coin and 50p piece into the machine and then elected to press the green button rather than cancelling the transaction. The best analysis would seem to be that the contract was brought into being when the green button was pressed. On that basis, the pressing of the green button would represent acceptance by the customer of an offer by NCP to provide an hour's parking in return for the coins that the customer had by then paid into the machine.

Nubley

There was no overstay. We paid for an hour and left after 57 minutes (as recorded on the APNR). However, we didn't pay before the conclusion of OCP's 10-minute grace period., which is why we got a charge notice.
Frustratingly, I can't exactly say how long the car was parked before we successfully obtained our pay-and-display ticket from the machine because it got thrown away when we cleaned out the car after our holiday, but I would guess about 20 minutes.
As I say, if they have APNR clocking the time in which every car enters and exits and people have to enter their car registration number when they pay, there should not logically be a need for a pay-and-display ticket or indeed a maximum 'observation' period on arrival. OPS know exactly how much has been paid for each vehicle and how long it has been parked for and can exercise its enforcement accordingly. It's just a racket to extort money from people on a technicality.

Umkomaas

ParkingMad said:

Paragraph 18 says

In the hypothetical example, the precise figure was settled when the customer inserted her pound coin and 50p piece into the machine and then elected to press the green button rather than cancelling the transaction. The best analysis would seem to be that the contract was brought into being when the green button was pressed. On that basis, the pressing of the green button would represent acceptance by the customer of an offer by NCP to provide an hour's parking in return for the coins that the customer had by then paid into the machine.

You just beat me to it! 👆

Redx

We are going round in circles here , post redacted photos of both sides of the NTK PCN , covering up your name , address , VRM details , PCN reference etc

Leave the dates and times showing , plus the allegation by OPS 

You seem to be alleging that one hour was paid for at the time the button was pressed , but the vehicle entered passing the anpr camera many minutes before that , possibly 20 minutes before , exceeding any minimum grace period allowed between entering and paying for a ticket , known as grace period 1 , or A

This means the vehicle left approximately 17 minutes before the ticket expired !! , So no grace period 2 , or B. The BPA CoP defines both , unless the signage defines a greater period than the CoP

Of course it's a racket , all those earlier links prove it , it has been for many years !!

Mse posted this advice 4 years ago about keeping paid for tickets

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/team-blog/2017/05/throwing-pay-display-ticket-away-use-cost-100/

Nubley

See PCN notice here