Llangrannog beach car park rip-off. Is the pay and display ticket relevant?

Nubley

Towards the end of a tiring day, we failed to spot the pay and display signs when we stopped at Llangrannog Beach for a cup of tea (our first ever visit there), possibly because we had parked at Newport beach earlier that day, which had been free. It was only after we had sat down outside the cafe for a short while that it occurred to me we might have to pay. It was a real "Oh s***!" moment!
I therefore rushed back to the car and spotted the machine. As I approached, I noticed an elderly couple trying to get to grips with it. The various buttons and instructions seemed quite complicated, not least the bit where you had to enter your car registration number, and I wasn't really much help (I'm 63). Then a young woman arrived and assisted the couple, who finally managed to buy a ticket. By the time I succeeded on paying for mine, I reckon a further 10 minutes or so had passed. Nevertheless, we paid for up to an hour's parking and were parked for just under 57 minutes.
Now One Parking Solution (OPS) has issued me with the standard £100 PCN (£60 for prompt payment) on the grounds of "parking session purchased after the grace period expired". It states our arrival and departure times and includes CCTV screen grabs of our car entering and leaving the car park. I am wondering whether it is worth challenging the penalty on the following basis...
1) We contracted to park for up to an hour and left within that time, so the car park owner has suffered no financial loss. I am to all intents and purposes being surcharged on a technicality.
2) Given that motorists must enter their registration number in the machine and One Parking Solution clocks the arrival and departure time of every vehicle, does this not effectively render the time at which I buy the pay and display ticket (and for that matter, the ticket itself) irrelevant? I can understand that in car parks where there are no such cameras and where the car registration number does not need to be entered on the P&D sticker, delaying payment would potentially allow the motorist to 'steal' extra parking time. However, with the technology in operation at Llangrannog Beach, this would be impossible. Effective enforcement measures are in operation from the moment you enter the car park until the second you leave.
I do not hold out any real hope of OPS upholding my appeal but does anyone think that my argument would stand much of chance with POPLA?

Redx

Paragraphs please 

I assume that you have read all the previous threads about this rip off location ?

Coupon-mad

Unlikely at POPLA but it would in court. 

Don’t pay One Parking Solution.  Not unless a clueless Judge tells you to, in the end. 

Keep your ticket and all letters including debt demands over the months as they paint a picture of what’s really going on and the false £70 they add, that no clued-up Judge would allow. 

They are IMHO a pariah of a firm, run by ex-clampers with that mentality still apparent from their various predatory operations, widely reported about Eastgate Wharf, Broadwater Street West, Stanmer Park and Peacehaven Co-op (they’ve been removed from those last 2 sites in Sussex but still infest residential car parks and ruin people’s lives who dare to stop at the entrapment zone at Eastgate Wharf, where they used to run it as a clamping site pre-2012 but now film people by CCTV).

it is hugely disappointing that they have ruined Llangrannog as well. We assume you’ve read all the despairing newspaper articles from locals about their village being blighted and tourists being driven away, literally, by these horrific “cowboys” (word used widely by MPs as well as the Sunday Times in many articles about OPS). 

Do the appeal but expect to lose at appeal stage unless POPLA agree that the signs are shocking, which they are.  OPS have added a tiny, non-prominent sticker about ‘paying within 10 minutes’ to some signs but not others, and the main sign near the machine doesn’t mention it but is the most cluttered sign we’ve ever seen.  They’ve included all the Welsh translation of in a single sign instead of showing a sign in English next to a sign in Welsh which would be consumer-friendlier. 

Send a pm to my friend @ParkingMad who has photos of the signs that you can include at POPLA stage, which is worth a try and even if lost, looks better at Court stage to a Judge because it shows you consistently tried to resolve the matter.

Nubley

Yes I have read as many as I can but so far haven't found anything that quite corresponds to my situation, specifically whether anyone has successfully challenged a parking penalty on the same or similar grounds.

Redx

Nubley said:

Yes I have read as many as I can but so far haven't found anything that quite corresponds to my situation, specifically whether anyone has successfully challenged a parking penalty on the same or similar grounds.

It's not a penalty , it's a parking charge notice , important difference , it's just an invoice , nothing more

Plenty of appeals and challenges have gone in , the Popla decisions thread at the top of the forum may have some , bearing in mind the many changes already made in the last 2 years , so historical accounts may now be useless going forward !!

It's more a case of trying anyway , bearing in mind the new signage etc , pointless looking at anything over 12 months old

Nubley

Thanks for your messages. Unfortunately, I didn't keep my pay-and-display sticker but hopefully that shouldn't matter because OPS don't dispute that I paid. The charge is just on the basis that I didn't pay during the so-called grace period.
Really, I'm just trying to gauge whether I would have much joy with POPLA (I have had charges cancelled by them in the past) in this situation. OPS will argue that I accepted their terms and conditions by staying in the car park after the 10-minute period but it's a question of whether POPLA would accept the moral argument (ie I paid for up to an hour and stayed 57 mins) and the fact that I could not gain any financial advantage by not purchasing my ticket until after the 10 minutes had passed.
I don't relish the prospect of going to the county court and the possible time and expense that would entail, not leastn if I didn't win!

Redx

Clause 13 of the current BPA CoP version 8 covers the situation , so an eloquent Popla appeal on this point may succeed , but there are no guarantees !!  It's try it and see , assuming that OPS complied with POFA ?

All these PCN s are challenged on a technicality , because they are issued under a technicality , that is the nature of the game

So the initial payment delay is frustration of contract due to complicated payment on the machine , requiring assistance from others , payment was eventually made so a contract was formed at that moment for 60 minutes of parking time , not disputed by the claimant

An additional grace period under the BPA CoP was allowed to leave , again in clause 13 of the BPA CoP V8 , January 2020 edition

You would hope that POPLA would see the payment as good faith and so not bilking , and hope to win at POPLA

If not , you would hope that a judge would agree , in court

But you won't know if you don't try !!

Ps , how long was the alleged overstay. ?

Nubley

Hmm. Yes I would be fairly confident about the queue/complicated machine amounting to a frustration of process. I'm less confident about the initial delay when I hadn't realised we needed to pay.
As I say, that ought to be irrelevant anyway, given that the cameras/entry of registration means they can enforce payment whenever you purchase your ticket, and they have had full payment for the period we parked, but the question is whether POPLA would accept the moral logic of that.

Redx

As I said , you won't know without trying , but any inattention at the beginning won't be in the Popla appeal , or any appeal !!

It's summer , People are out at a Welsh beauty spot on the beach , of course it was busy and only one machine , of course people were queuing with social distancing in mind , a legal obligation !! It just took longer than expected. Genuine frustration of contract !! Classic case !!

As for previous PCN history , surely the driver is well aware that rule number one is never park anywhere at all without looking for signage and reading it ? It's a given that when the wheels stop turning , the ones in the brain assume that it has parking restrictions , unless categorically proven otherwise , each and every time !!

It's like all roads are 30 mph if no sign says otherwise !!

In my latest vehicle , I now know it has start stop technology , so will ALWAYS switch the engine off when stopped , unless action is taken !! Each and every journey !! First vehicle where this has happened to me , yet all modern vehicles have it now ! So positive action by me prevents the default from occurring

Fruitcake

ANPR records time on site, not time parked. The UK Government doesn't allow councils to use ANPR for car park monitoring, but since the industry is unregulated, PPCs use the flaws generated by these scameras to make money.

PoPLA won't decide on moral obligations or mitigating circumstances. 

Your main points at the PoPLA stage will be inadequate signage and frustration of contract, plus all the other template appeal points. Neither the PPCs initial appeal decision or the PoPLA assessor's decision are binding on the motorist.

KeithP

Fruitcake said:

Your main points at the PoPLA stage will be inadequate signage...

And just to emphasise @Fruitcake's point... if the signage wasn't inadequate, you would've seen it, read it, understood it and paid on arrival.