Neighbour's electrical wire over my door

arciere

I live in a converted flat on the first floor. The building is an end-of-terrace house with two floors only (ground and first): the ground floor has kept the original entrance door, my entrance is a new door on the right side of the building. Due to historical reasons, the ground floor flat owns a small shed that is located next to our patio/entrance (basically, from left to right: ground floor entrance, patio door to first floor entrance and ground floor's shed).

The issue I'm having is that there is an electrical cable that runs from the neighbour's property on the ground floor, above our door, to their shed. It's one of those grey, flat cables in a plastic conduit.

We recently started refurbishment works in the patio and our builders made us aware that this cable is a fire hazard because it was not made to be installed outside, and the shed it goes to it's made of dry and very old timber (with a few holes in the roof). Plus, it looks horrible on the new door we are fitting and the idea of having a 230V cable 5cm above our heads is not amusing.

We tried to talk to the neighbours (we don't get along with them, at all) but they refused to do anything with it because "the cable was there before we moved in". Trying to make them understand that the property is now theirs and it is now their responsibility was pointless.

So, what are my options? The builders suggested we call the fire brigade and ask for a fire risk assessment visit, but it's a nightmare because nobody seems to be answering the phone and they never return any calls.

TELLIT01

Even if they are made to replace the cable and conduit it will still run along the same route so there will be no improvement to the visual aspect.  Have you thought through what route you would want the cable to take?

arciere

Yeah I can live with that. They even said "you can remove it because we don't need it as it keeps tripping our electrical panel".
Then they changed their mind and were like "you can replace it with another one and you pay for it, and of something gets damaged it will be your fault".
So I was like no thank you, it's your responsibility to make it safe, not mine.
I wouldn't mind having a properly insulated cable there, but I don't want to pay for an electrician to do what they should do.

tacpot12

I very much doubt that the cable is a fire-hazard. The principle risk of fire comes from the cable overheating, due to more current being carried that the  cable is rated for, but this is what the breaker in the Consumer Unit is designed to prevent. So the builder's don't know if there is any risk of the cable overheating (due to load) unless they know what is in the shed, what breaker is fitted, and have done the calculation to see if the breaker is incorrectly sized. 

The other risk of fire comes when the risk of the cable overheating is combined with a higher ambient temperature e.g. on hot days if the conduit is in direct sunlight. If the conduit is white or in a shaded area, it will not absorb much heat at all, and I would expect there to be little danger of the cable overheating if it is in conduit providing the breaker has taken the fact that the cable is installed into account (an electrician installing the cable would have taken this into account). If the conduit is black, it is more likely to be an conduit designed to be uv resistant, but it will absorb more heat which could cause the cable insulation to soften. Unless the cable is already overloaded I don't think there is much likelihood of the insulation being affected. An experienced electrician would be able to give you a better idea of the actual level of fire risk than the fire brigade, but it would need the tenant's cooperation.   

The final risk in not one of overheating/fire but of the eletrical insulation breaking down over time. An electrian can measure the  degree to which the insulation may have broken down, and there are minimum values for safety to ensure that no one can get an electric shock if the  touch the cable. 

You might find this discussion between electricians to be interesting/useful:  
IET Forums - Flat twin and earth on the outside of buildings? (theiet.org)

I would suggest that if the neighbours are not co-operating then all you can do is write a dated letter (and keep a copy) to them saying that "We are writing to your to advise that the cable running to your shed appears to be unsuitable for outdoor use and we would ask that you have the cable inspected by an electrian to determine if it is still safe. If the  cable causes a fire or any other damage to our property we will hold you liable for negligence if you don't have the cable checked."

It won't improve relations with the neighbours, and if I were faced with this issue I would ignore it. If you wanted to have some new conduit installed to improve the appearance of the installation, you might offer to pay for the work if the  neighbours facilitate it. 

arciere

Thanks tacpot12, really helpful. This is the cable.
Unfortunately their cooperation will always be zero, nada, so any action will have to be from my side only.

Norman_Castle

arciere said:

Yeah I can live with that. They even said "you can remove it because we don't need it as it keeps tripping our electrical panel".
Then they changed their mind and were like "you can replace it with another one and you pay for it, and of something gets damaged it will be your fault".
So I was like no thank you, it's your responsibility to make it safe, not mine.
I wouldn't mind having a properly insulated cable there, but I don't want to pay for an electrician to do what they should do.

Its a concern if it keeps tripping their electric. Would they agree to it being terminated where it exits their property? How much would an electrician charge to remove it from their fuse box, once disconnected you can remove the cable yourself. Would you be willing to pay for that?

Jeepers_Creepers

Arc, would you be 'happy', for the sake of good relations, to ask your builders to include burying the cable in a conduit under the path whilst they are there? If so, put that very reasonable and more-than-kind offer to your neighb. (If you can't bear the thought of paying for this yourself, then get a quote from the builder, and tell your neighb 'this is a great offer - it's much cheaper because they are already here.' Or, offer to go 'halves'.)

The alternatives would be to try and find out whether it doesn't conform to any regs that exist for this. Eg, adequate height above a pedestrian pathway. Adequately protected. Any sparkies on here?

Or, make it a fait-accompli - accidentally bring it down. And, when it's down, refuse permission for them to attach anything to 'your' wall, or what is the Freeholder's wall - they should ask the FH for permission before carrying out external mods like this, and this becomes your opportunity to inform the FH why it shouldn't happen; (a) it's a genuine hazard, and (b) is unsightly and spoils the look of their property. If the FH agrees, then the flat owner will need to do the burying work himself and at his cost - which he won't bother with, since he's clearly not bothered about it in any case. I presume it's mainly for lighting in his shed? In which case there are numerous solar alternatives.

First, tho' - who 'owns' the pathway concerned? Is it shown 'edged' on one flat's deeds and not the other? On whose deeds is it shown? And what rights of way do you, and the other flat owners, have over it?

If it 'belongs' to just one flat (hopefully yours) but both flats have a right of access over it (as they almost certainly do), then - unless it specifically mentions 'including the right to run services and stuff' on there - I think you can reasonably conclude that these 'rights' do not include that of running a cable across the path, especially where it could be construed as being a hazard and/or an obstruction. I mean, have you been in your flat over a Christmas period yet? No? How much extra care would you need to take in order to get your Chrimbo tree into your flat whilst avoiding that cable? Would you need to move it from port-arms to dragging it behind you by its base? If so, that is surely both unreasonable and a hazard - because it's always dark when folk bring their Chrimbo tree home.

IF they say 'no' to your kind offer (assuming you are happy to do this), then you inform them that, whilst you and your builder will take as much care as they reasonably can to avoid it, you both consider it to be an 'unreasonable obstruction' of that right of way as it severly limits the height of objects being carried - and your builders will be carrying long and tall objects. You are 'putting them on notice' that you have given them fair warning to resolve this. You and builders will obviously take care to avoid it, but cannot be held responsible should it become damaged whilst they carry out their rightful work. 

Section62

arciere said:

the idea of having a 230V cable 5cm above our heads is not amusing.

On this bit here's some reassurance.  Unless the cable has been seriously damaged so a live conductor is exposed, being 5cm above your heads poses no risk whatsoever.  If it was, then touching extension leads or appliance leads while they are plugged in and switched on would also be dangerous.

arciere said:

Plus, it looks horrible on the new door we are fitting...

Is this the main reason you are unhappy with the cable then?  Nothing wrong if it is, just try and avoid doing what the builder has done and introduce other things like fire risk if there is no obvious evidence of a problem.  The trip going is evidence of some kind of problem, but that isn't necessarily due to the cable.

If you don't like the appearance of the cable then you can ask the neighbour to change it.  If they refuse, you can ask for permission to change it at your expense. If they refuse then your options are limited, and probably all rather expensive.

Generally, while doing building work, small details can look like real eyesores - often because we focus attention on them.  In normal day-to-day life we don't usually pay much attention to those small details. Human sight is a wonderful thing that can block out things that don't matter, while giving laser focus on details.  See here for an example.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4

In other words, if you aren't looking at the cable, you'll probably stop noticing it is there.


Edit: Having now seen the photo, presumably the person designing the building works was aware of the cable and had planned to securely attach the cable/conduit neatly to the finished structure, not just leave it across the doorway?

Jeepers_Creepers

Some posts - including that photo - seem to have only just appeared? Weird...

Anyhoo, that overhead cable is waaaay too low! You'd need to always be aware of it so that you could avoid it if carrying anything tall - even your head.

Shoorley it can be considered an obstruction to the full rightful use of that path?

Imagine you are the builder there, carrying a large plank or lintel out that door - you crouch slightly and angle it to avoid the doorway, and then naturally straighten up once outside - oops.

That would be terrible. Just awful. Poor cable.

arciere

Norman_Castle said:

arciere said:

Yeah I can live with that. They even said "you can remove it because we don't need it as it keeps tripping our electrical panel".
Then they changed their mind and were like "you can replace it with another one and you pay for it, and of something gets damaged it will be your fault".
So I was like no thank you, it's your responsibility to make it safe, not mine.
I wouldn't mind having a properly insulated cable there, but I don't want to pay for an electrician to do what they should do.

Its a concern if it keeps tripping their electric. Would they agree to it being terminated where it exits their property? How much would an electrician charge to remove it from their fuse box, once disconnected you can remove the cable yourself. Would you be willing to pay for that?

Yes, but that's no longer an option. They now say that "the cable was there before we moved in so we won't do anything about it"

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

You and builders will obviously take care to avoid it, but cannot be held responsible should it become damaged whilst they carry out their rightful work. 

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Imagine you are the builder there, carrying a large plank or lintel out that door - you crouch slightly and angle it to avoid the doorway, and then naturally straighten up once outside - oops.

That would be terrible. Just awful. Poor cable.

An 'accident' of this sort could result in the OP and/or the builder having an 'interesting conversation' with the HSE regarding their responsibilities under CDM.  Or, potentially a prosecution under the HASAW Act.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/areyou/client.htm

As suggested in the edit to my previous post, presumably the person with responsibility for the works being undertaken was aware of the presence of the cable and has made a plan for protecting it (both during the work and) if necessary in the operation of the finished building.

Anyone unfamiliar with CDM should read up on the subject.... particularly if they are sometimes clumsy and 'accident' prone.