Neighbour's electrical wire over my door

arciere

Rosa_Damascena said:

arciere said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Arc, would you be 'happy', for the sake of good relations, to ask your builders to include burying the cable in a conduit under the path whilst they are there? If so, put that very reasonable and more-than-kind offer to your neighb. (If you can't bear the thought of paying for this yourself, then get a quote from the builder, and tell your neighb 'this is a great offer - it's much cheaper because they are already here.' Or, offer to go 'halves'.)

Good relations have long gone (take a look at my previous posts if curious).

We both share the freehold of the building, which, in a way, just makes things worse. So far, we have gone from "happy 

Remind me - are they the ones with the spicy cooking that refuse to ventilate? If they won't do anything that costs them nothing, don't expect them to spend a penny.

Sharing a party wall is bad enough, there is no way I could share a building with others. A communal environment just ain't for me.

Yeah, same people 

And I know and agree with you, but unfortunately my financial situation doesn't allow me find a place here in London where I don't have to share something with someone.

Norman_Castle

arciere said:

 Now, that socket gets very often soaked in rain because there are holes in the walls of that shed and a big one on the roof. The neighbours complained about it on several occasions saying that it was tripping their electrical panel.

They don't need it, don't use it and is causes them ongoing problems but they won't let you remove it. Give up. Advise them they will be held responsible for problems caused by its known poor condition and nail it out of the way.

Section62

arciere said:

Previously, we had a shed (same material as the neighbours') that also was our 'entrance'. Basically, you had to go through a tiny door, then the main door was on the right side of the building. We decided to have that 'shed' redone because it was falling apart and the wood was contracting-expanding so much that in winter we often got stuck inside because both doors (the one leading to the garden and the one leading to the pathway) wouldn't move. I spoke with 7 different builders and they all told me that the existing construction had to be demolished.

....

Planning application sent to council and approval received last year. BC application submitted and first visits already done, but then we got confirmation that the project is exempt because it falls within the 'patio' rules (I wish I had known that earlier). This has been confirmed in writing by the council.

Ok, so the structure being built is the replacement 'shed', but the only means of access/egress from your flat is through that 'shed'?

If so, and if the 'patio' rules is what I think it means, then it sounds like some serious wires getting crossed here.

A new patio (like a driveway) wouldn't normally need BC approval (there are some caveats to that though).

But I have never heard of a structure (which is more like a type of porch) of that size - which is the only means of escape from a first-floor flat in the event of a fire - being confirmed by BC to be exempt because it is a 'patio'.

Have I misunderstood something?

If not, then it would appear BC were looking at plans for a different project....

arciere

It's not our only means of escape from the flat if you also consider windows.

That being said, don't focus entirely on the fire risk thing. As I said, the fire hazard is on the list, probably the most important point, but that's not the only reason why I don't like that cable.

If we leave the purely aesthetic side, I don't like the fact of having a 230V cable 10cm above my head and the fact that the neighbours keep saying that it's not something they care about because they didn't put it there. It's a combination of factors.

Is there anything I can legally do about this? I don't know, that's why I asked here.

EDIT: Apologies, I just realised I wrote PATIO. I meant to write PORCH.

Ectophile

I bet there are live wires all over your flat, and you wouldn't think twice about being within 10cm of one. How do you plug appliances in?

That cable is insulated and sheathed. Unless the insulation is falling off, it's no more dangerous than any other cable.

Jeepers_Creepers

Very droll, Ecto :-)

Arc, you have a builder (or could even DIY this) and will likely have a sparky on site at some point. Put it to your neighb that you are prepared to pay to have that cable buried under the path AND fit an IP66 socket inside their garage which will improve what they have, make it safe, and stop all the tripping. That will cost you, what? - £100, £150 or so?

This is an eyesore, and that - let's be honest, and also be honest to your neighb - is the main reason you want it shifted. But, I think it can also be considered a partial obstruction to your rightful use of that path; it is directly over your main pathway to your main door, and does mean you need to always consider its presence and be prepared to take avoiding action every time you walk up or down your path when carrying something tall, or on your shoulder. You always have to make the conscious effort of reminding yourself of its presence, every time, or there's a good chance you will at some point come a cropper.

It ain't 'right'. Anything that is positioned on or over that path which could possibly impede your safe progress to any degree, and which is unnecessary and avoidable, should be absent.

If that cable were at foot height, it ain't enough that you 'know' it's there and can therefore remind yourself to step over it each time, and that somehow makes it 'ok' - it ain't, it'd clearly be wrongly positioned.

Is this cable wrongly positioned? Of course it is - it is just above head height. You have to always be aware of it if you are to avoid it under normal circumstances. Some folk don't think so? Ok, lower it by one inch - what do you say now? Another inch? One more? Each downward inch clearly makes it worse, but that doesn't mean that 3" above your head is suddenly 'fine' (I'm 6'2-and-a-bit and wear a trilby at a jaunty angle. Ok, some of that ain't true.)

Of course, a cable at throat or ankle height is a completely different issue to one that would only cause an incident if you had your nephew sitting on your shoulder, but that doesn't mean a nephew-poleaxing cable ain't also an issue - it is. Of course it is!

So, if this neighbour doesn't accept your supremely generous offer to bury and safely terminate their cable, then you'll know they have a different agenda or way of considering things, and it's probably best you learn that now.

I hope you can persuade them, but if they stubbornly refuse, then one dark and stormy night I know that I would come down that path, with my nephew on my shoulders. It's what he would have wanted.

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Arc, you have a builder (or could even DIY this) and will likely have a sparky on site at some point. Put it to your neighb that you are prepared to pay to have that cable buried under the path AND fit an IP66 socket inside their garage which will improve what they have, make it safe, and stop all the tripping. That will cost you, what? - £100, £150 or so?

I agree with the approach, but would make the point that IIRC the tripping has already been stopped.  It is also possible that the tripping was due to a plugged-in appliance, not the installation itself.  E.g. If the socket is single-pole switched then the appliance wouldn't even need the power switched on - a neutral to earth leakage path (say from the appliance getting wet) is capable of tripping an RCD if the conditions are right.  This would need to be considered before any legal action was contemplated that relied on 'evidence' of the tripping as proof the installation was dangerous. No electrical test report, no real evidence.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

But, I think it can also be considered a partial obstruction to your rightful use of that path; it is directly over your main pathway to your main door, and does mean you need to always consider its presence and be prepared to take avoiding action every time you walk up or down your path when carrying something tall, or on your shoulder. You always have to make the conscious effort of reminding yourself of its presence, every time, or there's a good chance you will at some point come a cropper.

It ain't 'right'. Anything that is positioned on or over that path which could possibly impede your safe progress to any degree, and which is unnecessary and avoidable, should be absent.

I'm not sure about the BiB, what's the legal support for that claim?  In any event, the "unnecessary and avoidable" gives a free pass, because both are subjective and you'd need to convince a court that someone else doesn't need electricity in their shed (how do you do that?), and that they should have to change anything which has an established presence. (but I won't quote those words again though)

(see the next bit)

Jeepers_Creepers said:

If that cable were at foot height, it ain't enough that you 'know' it's there and can therefore remind yourself to step over it each time, and that somehow makes it 'ok' - it ain't, it'd clearly be wrongly positioned.

Is this cable wrongly positioned? Of course it is - it is just above head height. You have to always be aware of it if you are to avoid it under normal circumstances. Some folk don't think so? Ok, lower it by one inch - what do you say now? Another inch? One more? Each downward inch clearly makes it worse, but that doesn't mean that 3" above your head is suddenly 'fine' (I'm 6'2-and-a-bit and wear a trilby at a jaunty angle. Ok, some of that ain't true.)

This is good for a theoretical discussion, but in practice the cable isn't that low, and based on the apparent original level of the path it is quite a lot more than "just above head height".  The change in vertical clearance appears to be the result of construction work which has placed the new threshold somewhat higher (possibly). In which case, legally, who is responsible for making an alteration to the cable so it no longer obstructs the new (higher?) doorway?

I also think your line of argument is going to come up against the de minimis principle.  Yes, it could be argued the cable is an obstruction of the RoW, but it is only a few inches away from the doorway, the head of which is both lower and higher than the cable.  By lifting the lower end of cable just a few inches, and securing it to the wall, the notional obstruction is negated by the presence of the door head. Walking or carrying anything along the path won't be obstructed by the cable because you'll hit the doorway instead.  Is there a trespass perhaps? Who knows, but the freehold situation means there is no third-party freeholder that's been sinned against, so the legals will be complicated.

Also, before leaving the de minimis question, securely fixing the conduit/cable to the wall above the door would need not much more than a couple of conduit spacer bar saddles, available from all good electrical/DIY retailers for (in this case) a princely sum of 35p (each)  https://www.toolstation.com/20mm-pvc-spacer-bar-saddle/p41442

So, how sympathetic would a court be if you made a claim over this 'obstruction', given the construction taking place next to it, and the cost of a solution being 70p?

The OP wanted to know if there is a legal solution.  INAL, but all the legal options I can think of would be very marginal cases, and inevitably cost a lot more than the £100-£150 (which I reckon is about right) to bite the bullet and just pay to get the cable out of the way.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

I hope you can persuade them, but if they stubbornly refuse, then one dark and stormy night I know that I would come down that path, with my nephew on my shoulders. It's what he would have wanted.

You should take a lot more care when looking after your nephew - banging his skull on that door frame could cause a serious head injury. What a careless uncle you would be to allow such a thing to happen. 

Jeepers_Creepers

Nice!

(But I wasn't trying to make a legal argument...)

Another_Level

So much as already been said, have seen the location of  london so good luck getting any authority to assist. Others will have different ideas.

240v Cables in plastic conduit over doors could become a problem if the door is an emergency exit and during a fire event the plastic conduit could deform/melt and allow the 240v cable to drop down and become a possible tangling issue for persons escaping or fire fighters making entrance.

The photo was work in progress, has the work now been completed ?

Hope it all works out well, really do 

arciere

Another_Level said:

So much as already been said, have seen the location of  london so good luck getting any authority to assist. Others will have different ideas.

240v Cables in plastic conduit over doors could become a problem if the door is an emergency exit and during a fire event the plastic conduit could deform/melt and allow the 240v cable to drop down and become a possible tangling issue for persons escaping or fire fighters making entrance.

The photo was work in progress, has the work now been completed ?

Hope it all works out well, really do 

We should get the doors fitted this week, hopefully, and the structure should be complete. The interior, including electrical wiring, will be done at a later stage due to budget constraints. So at this stage we don't have a certified electrician that can run a new cable for them or do any works other than slightly moving the conduit out of the way, which the builders could do themselves.

I know that it's not something worth escalating, but the same we said about our green bin, which we are paying for (since they refused to share the cost), but which they are now using without asking (yes, we did tell them not to use it and no, they didn't care).