Civil Enforcement ANPR Letter

R3y2727

Hi, can anyone help please, I've read the newbies thread and posts all over the place and my head is spinning!  I received a parking charge letter from Civil Enforcement today, dated 9/7/21 saying that my vehicle was in a car park with a max 90 minutes of free parking time from 7am - 7pm, permit holders at any other time from 19.42 - 20.15.
From what I have read, Civil Enforcement don't follow the POFA 12 guidance/legislation.  Am I right in thinking I just need to appeal online with the blue template?
Thanks in advance 

Redx

Yes appeal as keeper using the blue text template from the newbies FAQ sticky thread , as long as it's your vehicle and not hired , leased , or a company car

Check the NTK PCN for POFA compliance , or non compliance , hopefully it's the latter , so check !!

Appeal is plan B , so what about plan A ?

What are they alleging ?? Overstay or what ??

Was this in England and Wales ?? Or elsewhere. ?

D_P_Dance

... I've read the newbies thread ... and my head is spinning! 


Keep at it it will all fall into place eventually.  Have you complained to your MP?  

R3y2727

Redx said:

Yes appeal as keeper using the blue text template from the newbies FAQ sticky thread , as long as it's your vehicle and not hired , leased , or a company car

Check the NTK PCN for POFA compliance , or non compliance , hopefully it's the latter , so check !!

Appeal is plan B , so what about plan A ?

What are they alleging ?? Overstay or what ??

Was this in England and Wales ?? Or elsewhere. ?

This was in England.  They're saying that at the time the vehicle was parked, it was permit holders only
(T&C of parking - maximum 90 minutes of free parking between 7am - 7pm.  Permit holders only all other times).  Vehicle was parked from 19.42 - 20.15.

I'm assuming the non compliance is 
6. The creditor does not know both the name and current address of the driver.
but the back of the letter states 'the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and the current address for service for the driver.  You can choose to pay or appeal the unpaid parking charge but you cannot do both.  If you were not the driver of the vehicle, to notify us of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and pass the notice to the driver'

R3y2727

I've also just found these, I'm thinking these are relevant to this case but is this for further appeal or am I a bit ahead of myself?!

3 No Evidence of Period Parked - Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012 requirements

Contrary to the mandatory provisions of the BPA Code of Practice, there is no record to show that the vehicle was parked versus attempting to read the terms and conditions before deciding against parking and therefore entering into a contract.
Furthermore, PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 paragraph 9 refers, at numerous times, to the “period of parking”. Most notably, paragraph 9(2)(a) requires the Notice to Keeper to; “specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates”. By virtue of the nature of an ANPR system recording only entry and exit times, National Car Parks are not able to definitively state the period of parking.
NCP Ltd. have provided any evidence whatsoever to show the vehicle in question was parked on the date and time, for the full duration claimed and at the location stated in the Notice to Keeper.

4 Vehicle Images shown as “evidence” - BPA Code of Practice – non-compliance

The BPA Code of Practice point 20.5a stipulates that, "When issuing a parking charge notice you may use photographs as evidence that a vehicle was parked in an unauthorised way. The photographs must refer to and confirm the incident which you claim was unauthorised. A date and time stamp should be included on the photograph. All photographs used for evidence should be clear and legible and must not be retouched or digitally altered."
The PCN in question contains two close-up images of the vehicle number plate .Neither of these images contains a date and time stamp on the images, nor do they clearly identify the vehicle entering or leaving this car park (which is also not identifiable in the images as of any particular location at all).
The time and date stamp has been inserted into the letter above, but not part of, the images. 

5 The ANPR System is not a record of a ‘Parking Period’

The NCP Ltd. Notice to Keeper shows no parking time, merely two images of a number plate corresponding with that of the vehicle in question. There is no connection demonstrated whatsoever with the car park in question.
The Notice to Keeper states the date of the alleged incident, the entry (from) time and the exit (to) time. These times do not equate to any single evidenced period of parking. By NCP’s own admission on their Notice to Keeper, these times are claimed to be the entry and exit time of the vehicle. There is no evidence of a single period of parking and this cannot reasonably be assumed. Since there is no evidence to actual parking times this would fail the requirements of POFA 2012, paragraph 9(2)(a), which states, “Specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates”.

R3y2727

D_P_Dance said:

... I've read the newbies thread ... and my head is spinning! 


Keep at it it will all fall into place eventually.  Have you complained to your MP?  

No, not yet, this is the first place I came when I received it

Le_Kirk

R3y2727 said:

Redx said:

Yes appeal as keeper using the blue text template from the newbies FAQ sticky thread , as long as it's your vehicle and not hired , leased , or a company car

Check the NTK PCN for POFA compliance , or non compliance , hopefully it's the latter , so check !!

Appeal is plan B , so what about plan A ?

What are they alleging ?? Overstay or what ??

Was this in England and Wales ?? Or elsewhere. ?

This was in England.  They're saying that at the time the vehicle was parked, it was permit holders only
(T&C of parking - maximum 90 minutes of free parking between 7am - 7pm.  Permit holders only all other times).  Vehicle was parked from 19.42 - 20.15.

I'm assuming the non compliance is 
6. The creditor does not know both the name and current address of the driver.
but the back of the letter states 'the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and the current address for service for the driver.  You can choose to pay or appeal the unpaid parking charge but you cannot do both.  If you were not the driver of the vehicle, to notify us of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and pass the notice to the driver'

There is nothing law that can make you disclose the Name & Address of the driver and you shouldn't.  In a later post you mention that the driver could have been studying the terms and conditions before deciding to leave; but from 19.42 - 20.15 seems a bit of a stretch!

R3y2727

Le_Kirk said:

R3y2727 said:

Redx said:

Yes appeal as keeper using the blue text template from the newbies FAQ sticky thread , as long as it's your vehicle and not hired , leased , or a company car

Check the NTK PCN for POFA compliance , or non compliance , hopefully it's the latter , so check !!

Appeal is plan B , so what about plan A ?

What are they alleging ?? Overstay or what ??

Was this in England and Wales ?? Or elsewhere. ?

This was in England.  They're saying that at the time the vehicle was parked, it was permit holders only
(T&C of parking - maximum 90 minutes of free parking between 7am - 7pm.  Permit holders only all other times).  Vehicle was parked from 19.42 - 20.15.

I'm assuming the non compliance is 
6. The creditor does not know both the name and current address of the driver.
but the back of the letter states 'the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and the current address for service for the driver.  You can choose to pay or appeal the unpaid parking charge but you cannot do both.  If you were not the driver of the vehicle, to notify us of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and pass the notice to the driver'

There is nothing law that can make you disclose the Name & Address of the driver and you shouldn't.  In a later post you mention that the driver could have been studying the terms and conditions before deciding to leave; but from 19.42 - 20.15 seems a bit of a stretch!

I can't find where I've put that!  I've just found some extra info copied and pasted from an NCP appeal so maybe it was in there?!  If I need that bit I'll find it and take it out

Le_Kirk

R3y2727 said:

Le_Kirk said:

R3y2727 said:

Redx said:

Yes appeal as keeper using the blue text template from the newbies FAQ sticky thread , as long as it's your vehicle and not hired , leased , or a company car

Check the NTK PCN for POFA compliance , or non compliance , hopefully it's the latter , so check !!

Appeal is plan B , so what about plan A ?

What are they alleging ?? Overstay or what ??

Was this in England and Wales ?? Or elsewhere. ?

This was in England.  They're saying that at the time the vehicle was parked, it was permit holders only
(T&C of parking - maximum 90 minutes of free parking between 7am - 7pm.  Permit holders only all other times).  Vehicle was parked from 19.42 - 20.15.

I'm assuming the non compliance is 
6. The creditor does not know both the name and current address of the driver.
but the back of the letter states 'the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and the current address for service for the driver.  You can choose to pay or appeal the unpaid parking charge but you cannot do both.  If you were not the driver of the vehicle, to notify us of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and pass the notice to the driver'

There is nothing law that can make you disclose the Name & Address of the driver and you shouldn't.  In a later post you mention that the driver could have been studying the terms and conditions before deciding to leave; but from 19.42 - 20.15 seems a bit of a stretch!

I can't find where I've put that!  I've just found some extra info copied and pasted from an NCP appeal so maybe it was in there?!  If I need that bit I'll find it and take it out

Just here: -

3 No Evidence of Period Parked - Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012 requirements
Contrary to the mandatory provisions of the BPA Code of Practice, there is no record to show that the vehicle was parked versus attempting to read the terms and conditions before deciding against parking and therefore entering into a contract.

I see now you were quoting from somewhere else but my comment stands if you were to try and use that argument.

Umkomaas

In terms of the CEL NtK, does it anywhere in the letter (often the back page, sometimes among all the guff on Hire/Lease Vehicles) make reference to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4) para 9(2)(f)?

Also, please provide the date of the parking event and the Date of Issue of the NtK as shown on it. 

Redx

Ideally show us redacted pictures of both sides of the letter , covering up the PCN reference , your name and address , the vehicle VRM details etc , but leaving all dates etc showing

We don't want you to make assumptions , we want clarity !!

I already said to appeal using the blue text template , so none of the other stuff you found , yes you are ahead of yourself , take a chill pill , understand the basics and do nothing yet , except for showing us the pictures !!

Don't blow it now , there is no rush !! Do those crucial checks that Umkomaas says above , report back