Care Home resident and personal expenditure

Spendless

Pollycat said:

Spendless said:

I've spoken to Mum. She's going to take Nan some more cash and ask the care home what she is spending it on. I asked if she kept details on what date she gives Nan money. She said yes but would have to look it back up. Not sure from that if she jots it down or just gets a receipt from any withdrawals. I said if she's aware of dates then she can say to the care home between x and y date Nan spent £x and can you tell me what on. My Dad wasn't keen on that as he thought it sounded accusingly. My reply was that it didn't have to come across that way and in 6 years of never seeing what Nan is spending her money on, it's perfectly reasonable to ask to do so, it's in the care homes own interest too. 

Will update as and when there's further news. Thanks everyone for the help. 

It's your Nan's money entrusted to the care home to use/spend for your Nan's benefit.

Your Mum has every right to ask what the money has been spent on.

I agree with Mojisola - very remiss not to provide regular information on what the money has been spent on.

I completely agree with both of you. I said to Dad 'the care home should have been supplying this detail over the years'.
Ok, my Mum should have asked too. 

She (Mum) has only really thought about it in recent weeks when Nan has spent more in a shorter space of time. Mum is still convinced it's the hairdresser that Nan has spent the money on. I don't think it's previously occurred to Mum that she can ask for this detail. I wasn't sure either, which is why I posted on here about it. 

Spendless

So, usually is it up to the person who has LPA to ask the care home for such detail or should the care home provide it anyway?

For all I know, the care home has got this info but has never given it to Mum because she's never asked.  I appreciate even if the care home has kept the records, it's unlikely to date back to early 2015!  

gymgirl11

It may be a case of both - because your mum has never asked, they just never thought to provide the information! Whoever has LPA can ask the care home to provide a breakdown of the spending directly to them. 

The care home, on their website, should hopefully have a Data Protection statement or a dedicated part of their website which should provide you with the details on how you can ask for this information.

Some (but not all) may decide to treat your request as a Subject Access Request (where they ask for ID & proof of Lasting Power of Attorney) rather than treating it as a standard ‘business as usual request’. SAR requests can take up to one month to action if they do go down this route with you and most (again, not all) normally hold financial data for 6 years so if you wanted stuff for 2015 - 2021 they should hold it if their retention period is 6 years.

You could try asking for it politely first (by email so you have proof of asking) and see if they respond to you, however, if they don’t supply you with the information or ignore your email, you could then officially ask them to treat it as a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 2018. 

Pollycat

Spendless said:

So, usually is it up to the person who has LPA to ask the care home for such detail or should the care home provide it anyway?

For all I know, the care home has got this info but has never given it to Mum because she's never asked.  I appreciate even if the care home has kept the records, it's unlikely to date back to early 2015!  

The care home Mum was in previously provided details without being asked.

She's not been in this new place for very long (and there haven't been any visits from hairdressers, opticians or chiropodists) but in the paperwork it said they would provide details of spends.

I'll see if I can have a look at the paperwork next time I go to my sister's and see what the exact wording is.

Or maybe see if the information provided to your Mum when your Nan went into the home says anything about this (if she still has it).

My gut feeling is that whoever is responsible for the resident - whether nearest relative or who is named in PoA shouldn't have to ask.

Maybe Elsien would be able to answer this.

elsien

Financial LPA/deputy/appointee obviously have the right to see the information. No-one else does without the person’s consent as if they lack capacity then one of these should already be in place anyway, 
My personal experience is that some care homes are spectacularly bad at knowing who is involved with the person and in what role particularly when it comes to finance. Tell them you’re next of kin (which as I regularly tell people has no legal standing anyway) and they’ll share all sorts of stuff. 

They often don’t know if there’s an LPA and if there is, what’s it’s for. I am a professional but still get phone calls about people I’ve not been involved with for a couple of years asking for money because “you’re their advocate/next of kin/LPA/ person named on the admission paperwork.”

Obviously some places are better than others, but I would say it is the exception for receipts and records to be automatically shared as a matter of course.  

If those records are not there and the spending can’t be evidenced I would be looking at safeguarding/CQC. 

Mum needs to give them a copy of the LPA paperwork if she hasn’t already then politely but firmly request the breakdown. She doesn’t need to explain herself but if she wishes she can say she needs it for her own records in case the OPG check. 

tooldle

If it helps this is what happens with my mum. I get cash and take it to the home. Mum and i both then go into the office. Manager opens the safe, counts the money in-front of mum and I, money is added to mum’s wallet, mum signs register to confirm cash deposit, register and cash wallet goes back into safe. I stand back whilst this goes on to give mum some autonomy and hence don’t inspect the register, although i could if i wished. When  the home flagged their concern of relative accepting cash gifts on every visit, they provided both a photocopy of transaction register and gave me sight of the originals. Their register says what the money is spent on, the name of the staff member approving it with signature, and the same for the resident. 
My advice is to be clear on what information is required at what frequency, that way everyone knows where they stand.

Spendless

The care home manager is aware that my Mum has LPA at least for finances  because she rang her around/just before lockdown1 asking if Mum also had LPA for health or only for financial. Mum didn't have health (again she hadn't been aware. Her and Dad got lost in legal jargon when trying to set up the POA and went to a solicitor to sort it out, they did their own at the same time, but this was for finances only). The care home manager rang Mum due to wanting to know about DNR.

This is probably irrelevant but Mum told me today that until early last year care home manager had been unaware that Nan was self funding.  We live in a cheap area of the country and  I *think* the care home doesn't charge any more than the council pay. It was Mum's 2nd choice of home for Nan. Mum  was told her 1st choice was subject to third party top ups. Having read I think @Mojisola posts on this subject before, I now believe Mum was incorrectly told as there was a property to be sold, but either they told Mum wrong or weren't aware, so Nan went into Mum's 2nd choice that didn't require them. Anyway on discovering that the care home manager had not known this (about Nan paying) I query if there's a separate financial person there. Mum says yes but doesn't come across this person very often. 

Mum has said she is given a receipt for what money she hands over for Nan's spends. 

Torry_Quine

When my MIL was in a care home she rarely needed money. Hairdresser, chiropodist and dental visits weren't paid for separately but included in the weekly amount. If you wanted the home to provide toiletries then it cost a little extra on the bill.

My husband was a support worker and every shift two staff members checked and counted all the money held for residents

 It was also checked by two staff members every time money was added or removed

 

Pennylane

Spendless said:

The care home manager is aware that my Mum has LPA at least for finances  because she rang her around/just before lockdown1 asking if Mum also had LPA for health or only for financial. Mum didn't have health (again she hadn't been aware. Her and Dad got lost in legal jargon when trying to set up the POA and went to a solicitor to sort it out, they did their own at the same time, but this was for finances only). The care home manager rang Mum due to wanting to know about DNR.

This is probably irrelevant but Mum told me today that until early last year care home manager had been unaware that Nan was self funding.  We live in a cheap area of the country and  I *think* the care home doesn't charge any more than the council pay. It was Mum's 2nd choice of home for Nan. Mum  was told her 1st choice was subject to third party top ups. Having read I think @Mojisola posts on this subject before, I now believe Mum was incorrectly told as there was a property to be sold, but either they told Mum wrong or weren't aware, so Nan went into Mum's 2nd choice that didn't require them. Anyway on discovering that the care home manager had not known this (about Nan paying) I query if there's a separate financial person there. Mum says yes but doesn't come across this person very often. 

Mum has said she is given a receipt for what money she hands over for Nan's spends. 

I would be very surprised indeed if your Nan was self funding and paying the same as social services pay.  last time I checked social services paid approx £575 a week for care homes and about £650 for nursing.  Whereas, people self funding would be paying £900+ per week.  Self funders subsidise others by approx £34%. 

Spendless

Pennylane said:

Spendless said:

The care home manager is aware that my Mum has LPA at least for finances  because she rang her around/just before lockdown1 asking if Mum also had LPA for health or only for financial. Mum didn't have health (again she hadn't been aware. Her and Dad got lost in legal jargon when trying to set up the POA and went to a solicitor to sort it out, they did their own at the same time, but this was for finances only). The care home manager rang Mum due to wanting to know about DNR.

This is probably irrelevant but Mum told me today that until early last year care home manager had been unaware that Nan was self funding.  We live in a cheap area of the country and  I *think* the care home doesn't charge any more than the council pay. It was Mum's 2nd choice of home for Nan. Mum  was told her 1st choice was subject to third party top ups. Having read I think @Mojisola posts on this subject before, I now believe Mum was incorrectly told as there was a property to be sold, but either they told Mum wrong or weren't aware, so Nan went into Mum's 2nd choice that didn't require them. Anyway on discovering that the care home manager had not known this (about Nan paying) I query if there's a separate financial person there. Mum says yes but doesn't come across this person very often. 

Mum has said she is given a receipt for what money she hands over for Nan's spends. 

I would be very surprised indeed if your Nan was self funding and paying the same as social services pay.  last time I checked social services paid approx £575 a week for care homes and about £650 for nursing.  Whereas, people self funding would be paying £900+ per week.  Self funders subsidise others by approx £34%. 

It's not £900 per week. As I said we live in a cheap part of the country and my Mum has been paying this out of the proceeds of my Nan's property since 2015. Mum got £70K for the flat (ex council, 2 bed, own front door and garden) , which shows how cheap/deprived it is around here (Northern, ex-mining town). Think Mum has been paying £500ish weekly (around £2K permonth rings a bell with me)  until recently when the council has part funded. The money has eeked out until now as Nan has a small private pension too from my late Grandad, plus she was receiving some sort of disability benefit (Attendance Allowance maybe??) I think she became ineligible for it when the council started paying towards the care.