Care Home resident and personal expenditure

Spendless

My 97yo Nan has been in a care home with dementia for the past 6.5 years. My Mum has POA. Nan's flat was sold to pay for her care and she has around £20K left. Just recently the care home has been ringing my Mum to say Nan needs more spending money taken to them as Nan has spent it. We're unsure what on.  She doesn't go out of the home. A mobile hairdresser calls and so does a chiropodist. Once Nan had also had her nails painted. It's only a few weeks (unfortunately can't remember how long ago) that Nan needed £200. She was £90 in arrears at that point, so in effect was given £110 to spend.

A few days ago Mum got another phone call that Nan had ran out of money and needed £170. Wouldn't the Care home keep a record of what Nan is spending the money on?  Nan has no concept of understanding that she pays. Some years back she told Mum that her hair and feet being done were 'free in here' . I completely appreciate this is Nan's money and she's perfectly entitled to spend it on as many shampoo and sets as she wishes if that's what she's doing. I believe I read recently that eventually what's left of Nan's money, she will only be allowed to have £25 a week 'pocket money'. At that point it's unlikely she'll be able to continue with the same level of spending as recently and won't understand why she can't do whatever she's currently doing with her cash. Is my Mum able to find out what Nan is spending money on?  

elsien

The care home should absolutely be keeping a record if they are keeping it for her. If she is looking after it herself it’s slightly more difficult, but if Nan doesn’t go out on her own then staff will have an idea.
The LPA should be asking the question; however it is possible that it’s one off expenditure for things like dentist or optician because they are just getting round to care home residents since Covid first hit,
If Nan needs new dentures, for example, and had to pay those will be over £200. Glasses can be £150. What about clothes, who buys those for her? 
Just ask the question. The LPA gives that authority, the whole point being to oversee spending where the person is unable to do so for themselves. It is perfectly acceptable to tell the care home that you can’t provide any money till you are clear about where the last lot went, the LPA wouldn’t be doing their job correctly otherwise. Speak to the manager if you’re not getting any sense from the staff. 

ETA - if her money has gone down to 20k she should no longer be self funding the care home. That is the point at which her pension would go towards the fees and she would be left with £25 per week for personal expenditure. If she’s still paying her own care fees, the LPA needs to get onto the local authority as a matter of urgency.

 https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/family-and-care/long-term-care/paying-your-own-care-costs-but-the-moneys-run-out

Pollycat

I would expect to see a breakdown of monies spent by the care home on behalf of the resident - on  regular basis.

This is what my Mum's new care home have promised in writing.

We had to tick to what we were happy for the care home to provide out of this fund.

We agreed to hair, feet - can't remember what else (probably dental & optician) but toiletries and clothes were on the list and my sister provides those.

In her last home I think nail painting was done by the activity person and I don't think it was charged for.

Have you never seen an account of what this personal money is being spent on?

I would ask to see this and say it should be supplied on a regular basis. At least every time they ask for more money if they are asking for £200 each time.

I wouldn't expect my Mum to spend £380 in a few weeks.

Unless it was to cover dentist/optician as Elsien suggests.

But I'm sure the care home would tell us if Mum was having an eye test (they've already given us a heads-up on this for next month) or was being taken to the dentist.

Spendless said:

Some years back she told Mum that her hair and feet being done were 'free in here' .  

I doubt this was true.

elsien said:

ETA - if her money has gone down to 20k she should no longer be self funding the care home. That is the point at which her pension would go towards the fees and she would be left with £25 per week for personal expenditure. If she’s still paying her own care fees, the LPA needs to get onto the local authority as a matter of urgency.

 https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/family-and-care/long-term-care/paying-your-own-care-costs-but-the-moneys-run-out

+1 to this.

At the time your Nan's savings hit £23,250 the council should have been part funding her care.

And when her savings hit £14,250) the council will fund all her care - using all her income towards it apart from the personal allowance which is as you say approx £25 per week.

Here is another link that explains who is responsible for funding at financial milestones.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/

When my Dad was in a care home he was self funding and I meticulously recorded his care home fees against his savings and was ready to talk to the council about part funding before he hit the £23,250 mark but unfortunately he died before we got to that point.

74jax

When my mam was in a care home we had similar. When I gave say £100 spending money for the care home to keep, it was stressed by me for them to receipt every expenditure as mam had dementia.
Then when they needed more, they sent me the breakdown and I replenished. 
Once they didn't have a receipt for something like 15.20 and I made them do a full inventory to find it or they would be replacing it.
It was a Bupa run care home with full policies in place. I'd be asking to see their policies before handing over any more. 

Spendless

Thanks for the replies. No I'm aware that the hair and feet aren't free. I was trying to explain Nan's perception of it, where she's (possibly)  happily visiting the hairdresser as many times as she wants, under the misconception that it's free  as she doesn't realise she pays. I'm 99% sure she doesn't have control of her own personal spends. I very much doubt she has that level of understanding to do so.

The council is already partly  funding the care. My Mum definitely isn't aware that she's already at the point that Nan should only be getting £25 per week spends. She thought that only happened at the £14K amount.

Mum keeps records, for how much she has paid out for care home fees out of Nan's savings, and if she's needed to go purchase new clothes etc for her. I'm unsure that she's kept records on when the care home rings Mum up to say Nan needs more pocket money and she takes it in. In fact I think she can't, or at least not a detailed dated one,  otherwise she'd have been able to go look up the date she was asked for £200 and we'd know how long ago other than saying in general 'a few weeks' (it's less than 2 months though, I'm pretty sure of that).

No, Mum has never seen any breakdown of what Nan spends her money on in all the time Nan has been in there. I know this because both me and my Dad said this when Mum told us of the latest request for cash. I told Mum that surely for the Care homes safeguarding they need to be able to account for what Nan is spending her money on? It's the reason I've asked on here to see if usually accounts are kept for residents personal spends. We have no experience of care homes except this one.

I suppose it's possible it's gone on glasses/dentures but I would have also thought the care home would tell Mum this sort of info. They've told her when she's had to have a GP visit etc.

You've confirmed what I thought, Mum should be asking for a breakdown of what Nan is spending the cash on. 

tooldle

My mum’s Care Home keep a log of all spending which the resident signs every time they take cash of pay for a service. Be mindful that there is nothing to stop a resident ‘gifting’ cash to a visitor. Mum’s home raised this issue with me as she was giving lumps of cash to an individual on every visit. POA can and should ask to see the list of transactions. In addition to the other spends mentioned above, my mum’s place offer newspapers and magazines, a sweet trolley, chiropody, and they have a couple of local clothes business call with their merchandise. I recently bought four new dresses for mum which totalled almost 200. Around the same time staff asked for new slips and bra’s for mum, another 150 or so gone. I find the spending comes in large blocks and sometimes these are close together. 

Pollycat

Spendless said:

Thanks for the replies. No I'm aware that the hair and feet aren't free. I was trying to explain Nan's perception of it, where she's (possibly)  happily visiting the hairdresser as many times as she wants, under the misconception that it's free  as she doesn't realise she pays. I'm 99% sure she doesn't have control of her own personal spends. I very much doubt she has that level of understanding to do so.

The council is already partly  funding the care. My Mum definitely isn't aware that she's already at the point that Nan should only be getting £25 per week spends. She thought that only happened at the £14K amount.

Mum keeps records, for how much she has paid out for care home fees out of Nan's savings, and if she's needed to go purchase new clothes etc for her. I'm unsure that she's kept records on when the care home rings Mum up to say Nan needs more pocket money and she takes it in. In fact I think she can't, or at least not a detailed dated one,  otherwise she'd have been able to go look up the date she was asked for £200 and we'd know how long ago other than saying in general 'a few weeks' (it's less than 2 months though, I'm pretty sure of that).

No, Mum has never seen any breakdown of what Nan spends her money on in all the time Nan has been in there. I know this because both me and my Dad said this when Mum told us of the latest request for cash. I told Mum that surely for the Care homes safeguarding they need to be able to account for what Nan is spending her money on? It's the reason I've asked on here to see if usually accounts are kept for residents personal spends. We have no experience of care homes except this one.

I suppose it's possible it's gone on glasses/dentures but I would have also thought the care home would tell Mum this sort of info. They've told her when she's had to have a GP visit etc.

You've confirmed what I thought, Mum should be asking for a breakdown of what Nan is spending the cash on. 

It does only happen at the £14,250 level.

As per my post:

Pollycat said:

And when her savings hit £14,250) the council will fund all her care - using all her income towards it apart from the personal allowance which is as you say approx £25 per week.

If anything I've posted isn't clear, let me know.

If I were your Mum, I'd start keeping a record of what she gives to the care home for your Nan's spends.

And have a chat to the care home about seeing where the money is being spent.

Spendless

Nan's care home only started re-allowing visitors, recently (they've not been allowed since a couple of weeks before lockdown 1)  and only 5 are on their visitor list that can go. 2 are me and daughter and we've not been yet. The other 2 are my parents and the fifth her Niece who lives miles away, is recovering from Cancer and contacts my Mum in advance of visiting.  Unless she's giving it to a visitor of another resident, but then I'm pretty sure that she doesn't physically have her own money on her. She'd have to ask a staff member to do that. Am not certain she'd have the vocabulary to do so. She'd also have to see other resident's visitor and due to covid rules in there, am not sure she would. You have to ring up, see when they can slot you in and take a covid test on arrival. It's why me and daughter haven't managed to visit yet as daughter only just finished college. 



I can't say I've ever seen the likes  of a sweet trolley, Nan's  dementia means she doesn't read and I've never seen an 'outside source' come in to sell merchandise. Though I accept this may happen outside of visiting times. Mum keeps an eye on what clothes Nan has and needs and buys out of savings. I don't think she's ever been rang to say Nan needed something new, but I will check this angle out with Mum, thank you. 

Pollycat

If your Nan has dementia I'd be very surprised if she had access to her own money to give to another resident.

Visiting sounds very much like Mum's care home.

5 nominated visitors, maximum of 2 per visit and maximum of 2 visits per day.

The problem is getting visitor slots.

Mum's care home does allow visitors to ring ahead and arrange to take her out in her wheelchair for a short walk.

This way my sister can visit Mum more often than just relying on booked visits which are at a premium.

Maybe ask if that is an option at your Nan's care home...

I'd doubt that your Nan would ever see another resident's visitor.

At Mum's care home, visitors are tested, have to wait for results, then go round the back of the home.

Mum is brought into a little room through the home.

There is a waist high barrier but no glass.

I've never seen another resident during my visits.

I think your Mum just needs to ask the care home for a full account of everything your Nan has spent.

Personally, if you haven't had any accounts at all, I'd be inclined to ask them to go back for the last year (but as your Mum hasn't kept a record of how much she has given the care home, it will be hard to reconcile it).

And ask for a regular breakdown of where the money went.

It's been a very difficult time, hasn't it?

tooldle

Visiting arrangements sound very similar as with my mum. My mum also has dementia. The home at times walk a fine line between a residents wishes and safeguarding. My mum hasn’t had cash in her pocket for years. She would instruct the staff to give £x to her visitor and would sign the paperwork accordingly. Pre Covid i was crediting mums cash account with £200 every 2-3 months. All hairdresser visits, clothing, shoes, toiletries, optician, flowers, taxi charges etc are paid directly (by me as POA) and don’t come out of cash spends. If mum was to go to the hairdresser and i wasn’t available to take her, a carer would take her and there would be an additional charge to her cash account. 
I’ve got into the habit now of viewing the log of mum’s spends whenever i am depositing cash into her cash account.

pollypenny

I don't understand the hairdresser charges in care homes. If an elderly woman needs help to bath and dress, that would surely involve hair washing a couple of times a week. It wouldn't be beyond a carer to give it a quick blow dry.  

That is what happened where my father was, not for him, obviously.