PCN Kingsbridge, by the beach, CEL

TickTacks

Hi all!

A NTK came through the post this week from CEL in Kingsbridge for an overstay of 17 minutes. From the NTK I can't tell if it follows POFA. The site in question is kind of an odd one as to get through it you have to drive through a golf course car park and it is on the bottom end of it where you have to go through a field gate and park in an open field that doesn't have any marked bays.

The time stamps don't take into account getting to the other side of the carpark, finding a space and then paying for a ticket. Also doesn't help that I was blocked in by someone else when I was leaving.

I have attached images of the NTK and screen shots explaining the parking site. I am a bit puzzled on how to go about this or even if I have an argument against this. Any help would be much appreciated.

Le_Kirk

It looks like you drove into the golf club car park assuming you could access the public parking; however there is a sign at the entrance stating it is private and access to the public parking is 200 yards further along the road.  Google Street View is a little helpful but using it I could not find the entrance to the public car park, even though you could see the cars parked in the field.  Landowner cancellation is always Plan A (in the NEWBIE sticky - did you read them).  I suggest a complaint to the golf club as it is a form of entrapment, even though the sign states no access to public parking!

TickTacks

The occupant did drive through the golf car park, it's the only entrance and exit to the public car park. There is also a pay and display machine in the field which was used for ticket for an hour. I've done a little digging and the car park at the top end had planning permission from the golf club, so I assume it is theirs but the public can use it?

Le_Kirk said:

It looks like you drove into the golf club car park assuming you could access the public parking; however there is a sign at the entrance stating it is private and access to the public parking is 200 yards further along the road.  Google Street View is a little helpful but using it I could not find the entrance to the public car park, even though you could see the cars parked in the field.  Landowner cancellation is always Plan A (in the NEWBIE sticky - did you read them).  I suggest a complaint to the golf club as it is a form of entrapment, even though the sign states no access to public parking!

Yes I read this in the newbie section. I wasn't too sure who car park belonged too. Would I have any argument against them as I didn't use the golf course, only the public walk way to the beach?

Le_Kirk

TickTacks said:

The occupant did drive through the golf car park, it's the only entrance and exit to the public car park. There is also a pay and display machine in the field which was used for ticket for an hour. I've done a little digging and the car park at the top end had planning permission from the golf club, so I assume it is theirs but the public can use it?

Le_Kirk said:

It looks like you drove into the golf club car park assuming you could access the public parking; however there is a sign at the entrance stating it is private and access to the public parking is 200 yards further along the road.  Google Street View is a little helpful but using it I could not find the entrance to the public car park, even though you could see the cars parked in the field.  Landowner cancellation is always Plan A (in the NEWBIE sticky - did you read them).  I suggest a complaint to the golf club as it is a form of entrapment, even though the sign states no access to public parking!

Yes I read this in the newbie section. I wasn't too sure who car park belonged too. Would I have any argument against them as I didn't use the golf course, only the public walk way to the beach?

If it is the only entrance and exit to the public parking, the golf club must take some responsibility for not setting up their ANPR cameras (assuming that's what captured you) properly.  I would contact them (by e-mail - everything in writing) and try to find out the situation.

Coupon-mad

You can win this at POPLA if you are saying that:

- you drove past a camera but did not park there and in fact accessed a different car park, not operated by CEL
- show evidence of this (your parking ticket for the hour in the OTHER car park
- show location evidence if you have it (dash cam footage, or simply your Google location if enabled on your phone?
- state that you drove out past that camera again but didn't park where they say you did, and show maps as evidence
- also go back on foot and get video/photo proof, that the car park B that you were in, has no signs about CEL.

Complain to the landowner and also to the BPA that this site isn't enclosed and people parking in car park B are being penalised as if they stopped in area A.  Do a simple map to to explain the issue to POPLA and to the BPA when you complain.

Have I got that right?    CEL don't operate the car park you parked in?

TickTacks

Le_Kirk said:

If it is the only entrance and exit to the public parking, the golf club must take some responsibility for not setting up their ANPR cameras (assuming that's what captured you) properly.  I would contact them (by e-mail - everything in writing) and try to find out the situation.

The ANPR camera faced towards the entrance of the golf course car park but not the entrance to the public carpark site if that makes sense?

Coupon-mad said:

You can win this at POPLA if you are saying that:

- you drove past a camera but did not park there and in fact accessed a different car park, not operated by CEL
- show evidence of this (your parking ticket for the hour in the OTHER car park
- show location evidence if you have it (dash cam footage, or simply your Google location if enabled on your phone?
- state that you drove out past that camera again but didn't park where they say you did, and show maps as evidence
- also go back on foot and get video/photo proof, that the car park B that you were in, has no signs about CEL.

Complain to the landowner and also to the BPA that this site isn't enclosed and people parking in car park B are being penalised as if they stopped in area A.  Do a simple map to to explain the issue to POPLA and to the BPA when you complain.

Have I got that right?    CEL don't operate the car park you parked in?

CEL do operate the car park I think as there were no ticket machines in car park A. Unfortunately I am no longer near the south west and do not have a dash cam. But the ticket that was paid for I have but no writing on it stating CEL or any PCC. 

I have managed to find all the planning permissions documents and some photos of carpark B if that is any help?

I've attached pictures of the ticket.

Le_Kirk

The ANPR camera faced towards the entrance of the golf course car park but not the entrance to the public carpark site if that makes sense?

If the only entrance to the public car park is through the golf course car park, that is entrapment!  On the sign it states entrance to public car park 200 or 300 hundred yards to the left.  I have "driven" up there on street view and cannot see any other entrance.  I still believe a communication with the golf club cannot hurt.

If anybody reading this thread knows the area, could they help the OP with local knowledge or photos?

TickTacks

Le_Kirk said:

The ANPR camera faced towards the entrance of the golf course car park but not the entrance to the public carpark site if that makes sense?

If the only entrance to the public car park is through the golf course car park, that is entrapment!  On the sign it states entrance to public car park 200 or 300 hundred yards to the left.  I have "driven" up there on street view and cannot see any other entrance.  I still believe a communication with the golf club cannot hurt.

If anybody reading this thread knows the area, could they help the OP with local knowledge or photos?

Yes, that's the only entrance and exit to the car park (Area B (Red marked area on picture) through another carpark (Area A (Blue marked area). Their "Entrance" 200/300 up the road is inaccessible as the gate is shut and a hedge/ bush is growing through it and hasn't been used since 2009 (Google maps). Carpark B (Red Area) is managed by CEL since February/ March 2020, I've found the planning permissions from the golf club through the council apps(DOT)westdevon(DOT)gov(DOT)uk/PlanningSearchMVC/Home/Details/200151

I'll draft up a complaint letter to the golf course and post it in this thread before I send it

P.s: I cant post links, replace the (DOT) with an actual "." 

Castle

TickTacks said:

Yes, that's the only entrance and exit to the car park (Area B (Red marked area on picture) through another carpark (Area A (Blue marked area). Their "Entrance" 200/300 up the road is inaccessible as the gate is shut and a hedge/ bush is growing through it and hasn't been used since 2009 (Google maps). Carpark B (Red Area) is managed by CEL since February/ March 2020, I've found the planning permissions from the golf club through the council apps(DOT)westdevon(DOT)gov(DOT)uk/PlanningSearchMVC/Home/Details/200151

I can't see any applications for planning permission for the Cameras and advertising consent for the signs; something for the Council to answer.

Le_Kirk

Your link made live: -
https://apps.westdevon.gov.uk/PlanningSearchMVC/Home/Details/200151

Coupon-mad

ANPR cameras on poles require Planning Consent (not if attached to a building). 

Signs require Advertising Consent.