Ineos Grenadier - is it a rehashed LR Defender?

Grumpy_chap

Goudy said:

Can't help think they've missed a trick, perhaps they should have made a stripped out work vehicle to filled the gap left by the old Defender and priced it accordingly.

If by "priced accordingly" you mean cheap to buy, that may not be a good foundation for a viable business model.  I'd hazard a guess that there is more profit in the bells'n'whistles version than the poverty-spec version of any car.

What might well be missing a trick is launching a new vehicle brand developed around ICE given the direction of travel towards EV.

AdrianC

Car_54 said:

ripofflondon said:

Thanks a lot, Adrian - v interesting.  
Did you see too the "replica" Defender in camel trophy style? Unfortunately the replica is not affordable... 

So let us hope to see the grenadier on the road soon!

Also pretty capable seems to be the indian G-Class styled Gurkha. But this will probably never seen the european union. But maybe we can buy them in India and start travelling with indian numberplates and registration?

What's the relevance of the EU?

He means UNECE.

AdrianC

Goudy said:

Can't help think they've missed a trick, perhaps they should have made a stripped out work vehicle to filled the gap left by the old Defender and priced it accordingly.

That market's firmly in the hands of the crewcab 4x4 pickups, which are ~£25k in farm-spec.

Goudy

Grumpy_chap said:

Goudy said:

Can't help think they've missed a trick, perhaps they should have made a stripped out work vehicle to filled the gap left by the old Defender and priced it accordingly.

If by "priced accordingly" you mean cheap to buy, that may not be a good foundation for a viable business model.  I'd hazard a guess that there is more profit in the bells'n'whistles version than the poverty-spec version of any car.

What might well be missing a trick is launching a new vehicle brand developed around ICE given the direction of travel towards EV.

I just can for the life of me understand how you have come to the conculsion selling affordable or even cheap products like cars isn't a viable business model.

How do you think the likes of Ford got where they are today. Selling premium cars to the few who were rich and wealthy or selling simple and affordable cars to everyman?

There entire business model was founded on building cheap cars as quickly as they could to sell to anyone with a few quid.

Dacia sell around 42,000 cars a month in Europe alone, Jaguar sell around 30,000 a month worldwide (and then fix each one half a dozen times under warranty)

Lidl and Aldi must be close to going bust with logic like this even though they are opening around 20 new shops a month this year.

Car_54

Goudy said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Goudy said:

Can't help think they've missed a trick, perhaps they should have made a stripped out work vehicle to filled the gap left by the old Defender and priced it accordingly.

If by "priced accordingly" you mean cheap to buy, that may not be a good foundation for a viable business model.  I'd hazard a guess that there is more profit in the bells'n'whistles version than the poverty-spec version of any car.

What might well be missing a trick is launching a new vehicle brand developed around ICE given the direction of travel towards EV.

How do you think the likes of Ford got where they are today. Selling premium cars to the few who were rich and wealthy or selling simple and affordable cars to everyman?

There entire business model was founded on building cheap cars as quickly as they could to sell to anyone with a few quid.

That business model worked for a while, but couldn't be sustained for ever. By 1943 the company had to restructure (and sack Henry Ford) to avoid bankruptcy.

Grumpy_chap

Goudy said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Goudy said:

Can't help think they've missed a trick, perhaps they should have made a stripped out work vehicle to filled the gap left by the old Defender and priced it accordingly.

If by "priced accordingly" you mean cheap to buy, that may not be a good foundation for a viable business model.  I'd hazard a guess that there is more profit in the bells'n'whistles version than the poverty-spec version of any car.

What might well be missing a trick is launching a new vehicle brand developed around ICE given the direction of travel towards EV.

I just can for the life of me understand how you have come to the conculsion selling affordable or even cheap products like cars isn't a viable business model.

How do you think the likes of Ford got where they are today. Selling premium cars to the few who were rich and wealthy or selling simple and affordable cars to everyman?

There entire business model was founded on building cheap cars as quickly as they could to sell to anyone with a few quid.

Dacia sell around 42,000 cars a month in Europe alone, Jaguar sell around 30,000 a month worldwide (and then fix each one half a dozen times under warranty)

Lidl and Aldi must be close to going bust with logic like this even though they are opening around 20 new shops a month this year.

You appear to have misunderstood my comment about "more profit in the bells'n'whistles version than the poverty-spec version" in which I meant to be read as the profit in a Ford Focus Zetec with the cheapest options all through versus an all-singing-all-dancing Ford Focus ST.  I strongly suspect the 'per unit' profit is higher for the latter. 

The proposed Ineos Grenadier looks like it will always be a niche and low-volume product irrespective of price point, so the efficiencies of scale will never be there to turn out "bargain basement" prices.

Goudy

My point is it's pricing.

You can sell more and make less per unit or sell less and make more per unit. There's a point where both return the same, but that's all dependent on it selling in the first place.

It's not really a model that will create a new market all to itself, it looks like it's priced directly against higher end SUV's like the new Defender, yet there's no denying it looks like an old one!

I'm not confident those with the cash will see past that and it's market will be miniscule to nonexistent.

Wimbledon are using a fleet of new Defenders to ferry guests (and probably players) from top end hotels in central London to SW19, I just couldn't see them using Grenadiers for this myself.

Perhaps it might attract a few more buyers if it started it's range as a stripped out 4x4 farm van like the old Defender, then maybe a 7 seat crew bus, a pickup etc before topping out as a Lux SUV.

Ok, there are other work type vehicles in that market, but then again there's other expensive SUV's in that market as well and most of those will certainly look better parked up in Chelsea or hogging the country lanes of Cheshire.

Seems a shame it's target market is just few misty eyed old Defender fans with lots of cash to burn. It could be one of those classless vehicles that appeal to everyone and they almost always start out at the lower end of the market, like the Mini, Beetle and even the old Defender, which is still so popular, just ask any car thief!

Car_54

Goudy said:

Perhaps it might attract a few more buyers if it started it's range as a stripped out 4x4 farm van like the old Defender, then maybe a 7 seat crew bus, a pickup etc before topping out as a Lux SUV.

The days when "farm vans" were stripped out are long gone. Today's tractor driver enjoys infotainment, aircon, satnav ...

Goudy

Though the data doesn't seem back that statement up.

Most last model Defenders have risen in valve over the last few years.

A 90 County spec is up by around 30%, but the plain old 110 "van" nearly 43%.

Though the higher spec 90 XS has depreciated and the 110 XS is only just holding it's ground.

Grumpy_chap

Goudy said:

It's not really a model that will create a new market all to itself, it looks like it's priced directly against higher end SUV's like the new Defender, yet there's no denying it looks like an old one!

Arguably the closest competitor is the Mercedes G-Class from £100k:
https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/passengercars/mercedes-benz-cars/models/g-class/suv-w463/explore.html

That makes the Ineos look a bargain.